OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[Todd 127]

So there were 13 KTM's start the race 6 of which is under 50% finished in time 1 was out of time and 6 of them DNF that's not a good result percentage wise ?? When a person is going to buy a quad to race they select a bike for its reliability and then they soon find out that their KTM stands for Keep Them Maintained or else. How much is a piston from KTM ? 700 or 800 bucks and that's every how many was that again 40 hours that's just a standard working week isn't it. If the bike is so good out of the box why do you have to throw all of this other stuff on like shocks ?
 
I do not know where you pull your figures from because I spent sometime with a lot of different Pro riders when I was in the States and believe you me the Pro guys only get free product and the best support from Fox, they are not paid to run the product they run it because the technology is the future of suspension and it is products like these that gives them the edge. I was told by one Pro race not to give up my Foxes and he was sponsored by another suspension company.
 
Sure every bike is not without some faults, but the best thing about this is its just fun stirring you up Lenny and watching you lick the wooden spoon.

[A.J]

i had 15 hours on my yamaha last year and it blew up cost me over 2 grand to repair and i have prices for all my parts and they arnt as bad everyone thinks

[ATV PRO]

froggy wrote:

ATV NRG wrote: Roycroft wrote: Top 6 riders at finke raced on fox all round, 8 out of the top 10 as well. Why because they are the best value for money shock around as well the best adjustable shock on the market. Len why don't you ride a bike with fox on them as I know you still havnt. You will be surprised, that's why all the top teams ride on them and why they are the best selling shock on the market. I can't complain about Ktm, I race a half a on to finke and back an it got me on the podium. I'm still not convinced about the new engines being the right thing for an ATV. More so long term rec use, not like the old engines which are relativly bullet proof, there's stories out there of guys with over 100 hours before a rebuild in the old rfs engines. That's the type of engine consumers want.[/code] We aim to have a team of KTM-ATV NRG-PEP Racers in Finke next year,so to give FOX some competition. Fox are a good shock and marketed very well with good sales. However one of the best racers in the country Ryan Lancaster Ran Fox for a very short time because they were given to him .He couldn't wait to be back on PEP and is currently loving them again. The other Best racer Chris Brenton and current Australian Pro MX Champion is also on PEP and wouldn't pay for anything else. Why would I want to try them I trust these guys . Air shocks are cheap to manufacture, simple and effective but you cant compress air for the full travel and the pressures are unpredictable as they get hot. PEP ZPS are the only shock you can adjust the ride height without effecting the resistance to the Bump Stop ,you can fine adjust the bottoming by cross over points without adjusting Dampening.Oh yeh and you can leave the push bike pump at home. FOX are plush in a straight line ,however for most are scary in corners . The top pros in USA run Modified FOX shocks with springs in them to help with dive characteristics in corners. Only a few can ride them with confidence fast into corners . The new KTM Engines are really good with over 50 HP ,they are tuned for MX ,you need to adjust that tune to suit flat out running. They will need some development as any engine does that produces over 50 Hp in those conditions. x Is this the same concept as Motowoz? http://motowoz.com/motowoz%20%20-%20Technology%20102.htm

Hey froggy,
PEP are the only shocks on the market that are Zero Pre load .
_________________
Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[ATV PRO]

Todd 127 wrote:

So there were 13 KTM's start the race 6 of which is under 50% finished in time 1 was out of time and 6 of them DNF that's not a good result percentage wise ?? When a person is going to buy a quad to race they select a bike for its reliability and then they soon find out that their KTM stands for Keep Them Maintained or else. How much is a piston from KTM ? 700 or 800 bucks and that's every how many was that again 40 hours that's just a standard working week isn't it. If the bike is so good out of the box why do you have to throw all of this other stuff on like shocks ?   I do not know where you pull your figures from because I spent sometime with a lot of different Pro riders when I was in the States and believe you me the Pro guys only get free product and the best support from Fox, they are not paid to run the product they run it because the technology is the future of suspension and it is products like these that gives them the edge. I was told by one Pro race not to give up my Foxes and he was sponsored by another suspension company.   Sure every bike is not without some faults, but the best thing about this is its just fun stirring you up Lenny and watching you lick the wooden spoon.

Todd,

I would have to buy a lot of pistons to pay for your Kawasaki Big Bore kit and all the stuff you have bought for it I would say well in excess 35 +K ?
You can have Ryan Lancasters set up for about 20K including PEP/JB and then put 2 pistons in it .

How many Kawasaki s entered Finke ?

Yes the top Racers in the USA are paid to run Fox ,they all want to run

PEP but they don't get contingency so they run with who pay them.
They are Professional racers that race for money .

Most Pro am and Pro am production run PEP in USA,they stand on their own.

When I need assistance with PEP I call Wayne Mooradian as you probably know he is the owner,founder and builder of PEP Suspension.

Ryan Lancaster asked for some set up help before his race at Bunbury this weekend . I called Wayne late that night and gave Rosco the set up.

Same situation with Mitch Clarke in WA a Clubman racer on PEP.


Same with Chris Brenton's KTM WP PEP the day he won the Nationals in 2009 . I called Wayne to help with set up ,Chris spoke to him.The last call to Wayne that day was 1am US .


Anyone that purchases PEP suspension from ATV NRG or its dealers can call anytime to get support and then support by the person that builds them.

Its not about the money or volume sales, we are passionate in what we do and offer the best Product and service that we can.

The wooden spoon must have cake mix on it cause it tastes real good


_________________
Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[froggy]

ATV NRG wrote:

Hey froggy, PEP are the only shocks on the market that are Zero Pre load .

Hey Lenny I dont want to argue cos im way outta my league but cant any shock be zero pre load if you back the adjusters of to nothing? I have seen shocks that seem to work ok for people with 1 - 2 mm of slack. Wouldnt this be without preload?
Cheers Froggy

[Spaztk8]

Wow!! some discussion about a breed of bike!!! they are that good that everyone wants a say..

i heard the tune all week at finke that i wasnt going to make it up and back!! and i tried to prove people wrong.. i got both a 505 sx and 540 xc.. two awsome bikes built for to different purposes!! the 540 had almost 100 hours on it and is now in rebuild. which has been cheaper then rebuilding my old yammy..

The 505 went to finke.. serviced and left the monday.. exhaust fell apart and i continued to ride for 100kms then she blew some smoke and stopped.. ( again it was full throttle due to power loss for ages ). so got it home pulled it down.. compression ring has no spring and the oil ring burned.... it has cost $330 to rebuild it!!!!!!!

Not $700 like everyone is on about.. I am not an elite rider or a pro by any means.... but these bikes are off their head awsome!!!
the xc comes out with ohlin suspension!!! stock.. and it is awsome!!!
the wp on the sx is yes needs work.. but if your a 120 kg person it be perfect!!! but for average rider they need something done for sure!!

cheers to those for the help out at finke to!!! my first year!! and i def be back!! awsome week awsome race! next year with XC540...
_________________
If it ain't orange it a lemon!! KTM= can am recovery vehicle!!!

[JRE]

hey you didnt mention that you were tow started by a canam

I shouldnt laugh an XR650 broke my canam and me and he rode home
I guess I'm just soft
www.thumbpump.com/site/images/stories/editorial/2010_finke_blog/photo13.jpg

Last edited by JRE on Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:43 pm; edited 3 times in total

[ATV PRO]

froggy wrote:

ATV NRG wrote: Hey froggy, PEP are the only shocks on the market that are Zero Pre load . Hey Lenny I dont want to argue cos im way outta my league but cant any shock be zero pre load if you back the adjusters of to nothing? I have seen shocks that seem to work ok for people with 1 - 2 mm of slack. Wouldnt this be without preload? Cheers Froggy

Hey Froggy,

General shocks that have Preload are made to work with pre load ,if you back them right off they don't work how they were designed to.
Not recommended
_________________
Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[brad0080]

My 09 yammy went. Started blown large amouts of oil out the overflow in the airbox at about 30hours. replaced rings at about 60-70hours. Didn't cost $700 though (Thanks Darren).

[505power]

im currently rebuilding my ktm505sx and its done 55hours all that is wrong with it is the ring was worn, everthing else is perfect, and whats wrong with there shocks i hear that people are puting the WP's on yamahas???? i dont no thats just what i heard.

[bullet]

ATV NRG wrote:

froggy wrote: ATV NRG wrote: Hey froggy, PEP are the only shocks on the market that are Zero Pre load . Hey Lenny I dont want to argue cos im way outta my league but cant any shock be zero pre load if you back the adjusters of to nothing? I have seen shocks that seem to work ok for people with 1 - 2 mm of slack. Wouldnt this be without preload? Cheers Froggy Hey Froggy, General shocks that have Preload are made to work with pre load ,if you back them right off they don't work how they were designed to. Not recommended

Lenny is right there Froggy.
Most modern shocks come with enough pre-load adjustment that you can easily run zero preload or less.
Amongst other things, a shocks piston valving is set up to work with the fitted spring rate.
Particularly on the rebound side.
If you run any ‘slack’, at that point of the stroke the Rebound valving will most likely be too firm seeing as you don’t have a spring effort to return the stroke to fully extended.
There are benefits to this if you run only 1mm of slack…
1. you are really not wasting any real amount of shock travel.
2. you don’t hammer the shock to it’s full extension when you are airborn.
Keep in mind that when you are airborn, your suspension weighs nothing.

Any of the high tech shocks run all sorts of little tricks to allow a bit of bypass for zero pre-load.
The simplest and cheapest is a 1mm hole through the standard piston.

All up, if you’ve got the right spring weight and ride height, I think zero preload is ideal for just about every shock (*if you’ve got the spring rate right*)

On your original Honda shocks, you can safely extend the stroke (more travel) by changing the topping out mechanism if you run zero preload.
Which is a good thing, but as far as I know, it’s only the original Honda shocks that are good for this.
Talk to Adam from QuadSquad if you need more details
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[ATV PRO]

bullet wrote:

ATV NRG wrote: froggy wrote: ATV NRG wrote: Hey froggy, PEP are the only shocks on the market that are Zero Pre load . Hey Lenny I dont want to argue cos im way outta my league but cant any shock be zero pre load if you back the adjusters of to nothing? I have seen shocks that seem to work ok for people with 1 - 2 mm of slack. Wouldnt this be without preload? Cheers Froggy Hey Froggy, General shocks that have Preload are made to work with pre load ,if you back them right off they don't work how they were designed to. Not recommended Lenny is right there Froggy. Most modern shocks come with enough pre-load adjustment that you can easily run zero preload or less. Amongst other things, a shocks piston valving is set up to work with the fitted spring rate. Particularly on the rebound side. If you run any ‘slack’, at that point of the stroke the Rebound valving will most likely be too firm seeing as you don’t have a spring effort to return the stroke to fully extended. There are benefits to this if you run only 1mm of slack… 1. you are really not wasting any real amount of shock travel. 2. you don’t hammer the shock to it’s full extension when you are airborn. Keep in mind that when you are airborn, your suspension weighs nothing. Any of the high tech shocks run all sorts of little tricks to allow a bit of bypass for zero pre-load. The simplest and cheapest is a 1mm hole through the standard piston. All up, if you’ve got the right spring weight and ride height, I think zero preload is ideal for just about every shock (*if you’ve got the spring rate right*) On your original Honda shocks, you can safely extend the stroke (more travel) by changing the topping out mechanism if you run zero preload. Which is a good thing, but as far as I know, it’s only the original Honda shocks that are good for this. Talk to Adam from QuadSquad if you need more details

Hey Bullet,

This is from Wayne at PEP below , Probably should start a Suspension Thread

LEN,

THINKING LIKE THAT IS WHY I AM IN BUSINESS.THESE COMPANIES LIKE TO DOWNGRADE OUR ACHIEVEMENTS BUT ALL WANT TO CLAIM THEY HAVE THE SAME TYPE OF SYSTEMS. WE ARE CURRENT AND PAST U.S. AND FOREIGN NATIONAL AND WORLD CHAMPIONS EVERY YEAR SINCE WE RELEASED THE THE ZPS SYSTEM IN 1997. NO ONE IN THE INDUSTRY CAN CLAIM THAT.

THE FOX EVOL MEANS ''EXTRA VOLUME''. WHEN THE SHOCK COMPRESSES,THE LOW PRESSURE CHAMBER RISES IN PRESSURE.
THIS PRESSURE CONTROLS THE SPRING RATE AND LOAD WHICH IS PARABOLICALY PROGRESSIVE.
TO PREVENT THE PRESSURE RISE WHICH IS THE SPRING FROM BECOMING TOO FIRM, THE EXTRA VOLUME CHAMBERS PISTONS BEGINS MOVING TO OPEN UP THE CHAMBER TO SOFTEN THE SPRING RATE / LOAD AT THE LAST 1/3 GENERALLY OF TRAVEL WHICH IS THE POINT THAT BOTH PRESSURE EQUALIZE, WHICH THEN SOFTENS THE TRAVEL ON DOWN TO BOTTOM. SOME PROS
HAVE TO MAXIMIZE THE EVOL CHAMBERS PRESSURE OUT TO STOP BOTTOMING WHICH MAKES IT A SINGLE CHAMBER SHOCK LIKE THE STANDARD FOX FLOAT. IF YOU LOWER THE LOW PRESSURE THE ATV LOWERS BUT IS SOFT AND BOTTOMS BECAUSE SPRING RATE RISE AND LOAD ALSO SOFTENED. THIS ALSO CAUSES EXCESSIVE CHASSIS ROLL. BOTH NEGATIVELY AFFECT RIDE ABILITY.
IF YOU INCREASE THE LOW PRESSURE THE ATV RISES BUT THEN BECOMES TO STIFF AROUND MID TRAVEL. THIS IS CLEARLY NOT PEP ZPS WHICH HAS THE SAME
SPRING RATE AT ANY HEIGHT. SPRING RATE AND HEIGHT ARE INDEPENDENT.
THAT IS PART OF WHY PEP ZPS IS UNIQUE.

AXIS PRS IS RATHER COMPLICATED ANTI-BOTTOMING DAMPING CONTROL
ASSEMBLY. WE DESIGNED AND MADE PROTOTYPES OF THIS EXACT TYPE OF SYSTEM IN 1995 AND RAN THEM IN A RACES. WE LEARNED A LOT THAT WAS
APPLIED TO OUR LTD. MASS SYSTEM WHICH IS IN EVERY PEP ZPS SHOCK.
THE PRS WORKS WELL FOR CORNERS BUT HAS DIFFICULTY IN EVEN AND UNEVEN BUMPS SAME AS OUR SYSTEM EXPERIENCED.IT IS A CHARACTERISTICS FLAW. THAT IS WHY WE NEVER RELEASED IT. IT WAS NICE THAT SOME PEOPLE RECOGNIZED IT AS OUR SYSTEM FROM BACK THEN WHEN THEY SAW IT WHEN IT CAME OUT 2007. IAN FITCH FROM NEW ZEALAND DID THE TEST RIDING FOR ME ON IT.
HE IS THE ONLY FOREIGN RIDER TO EVER WIN AN AMERICAN NATIONAL,EVER. HE WON THAT NATIONAL IN 1996 ON OR ZPS WHEN NO ONE ELSE HAD IT. AFTER THAT RACE MY OTHER RIDERS SAID HE 'S GOOD BUT NOT THAT GOOD AND WANTED ZPS. I GAVE TO TIM FARR, SHANE HITT AND HAROLD GOODMAN AND THE REST IS HISTORICAL FACT HOW OUR ZPS PERFORMS. IAN SAID THAT WILL BE THE LAST NATIONAL HE WILL WIN WHEN THOSE GUYS GOT IT.OUR ZPS MAKES THAT BIG A DIFFERENCE.

THE WHITE POWER AND OHLIN PDS TYPE SYSTEMS ENGAGE AT THE BOTTOMING
BUMPER WHICH HAS MINIMAL EFFECT. THE IMPACT HAS BLOWN THROUGH THE TRAVEL BY THAT POINT AND A SUDDEN BOTTOMING IS FELT BECAUSE IT IS JUST TOO LATE IN THE TRAVEL TO BE EFFECTIVE. I HAVE DYNO'd ALL THESE UNITS AND FIND BEST EFFECTS WITH THE BUMPERS AND IN SOME CASES IN CONJUNCTION WITH A BUMPER CUP. SOME AS IN THE CASE OF A KTM 450 / 525 XC ENGAGES THE PDS 3 MM INTO THE BUMPER WHICH IS SO SHORT IN REMAINING TRAVEL AS TO BE LESS THAN IDEALLY EFFECTIVE, HENCE THE RIDER COMPLAINTS.

AS FOR ALL THE OTHERS TCS, WORKS AND THE LIKE WITH WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS A NO PRELOAD SYSTEM, IF YOU RAISE OR LOWER THE ATV IT DOES HAVE A PRELOAD EFFECT ON THE SPRINGS.PUT IT ON A DIGITAL CHECKER AS I HAVE AND IT IS VERY NOTICEABLE. IT EVEN CHANGED ALL THEIR CROSSOVER POINTS WHICH YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT AFFECTS THE RIDE QUALITY. THEIR SPRING RATES AND LOADS ALL ARE AFFECTED. RAISE THE ATV IT ALSO GETS FIRM OR HARSH AND LESS COMPLIANT IN BUMPS AND PUSHES, LOWER AND THEY GET SOFTER WHICH CAUSES CHASSIS ROLL, PITCH ONTO THE NOSE IN BUMPS AND BRAKING, KICKING AND A LOOSE REAR END THAT WANTS TO SLIDE OUT AND WHEELSPIN.

THEY ALL CAN CLAIM WHAT THEY WANT BUT IT'S BUYER BEWARE.THEY CAN BUY A CLAIM OR WHAT'S PROVEN.WE DO OUR HOMEWORK AND OUR REPUTATION IS
EVERYTHING.THEY CAN BUY OURS OR THEIRS AND THEN OURS. WHICHEVER IS MORE COST EFFECTIVE.

LEN, YOU GUYS KNOW THE DIFFERENCE,YOU'VE HAD THEIRS AND OURS BOTH.

ATV NRG-PEP for all your personal suspension needs .
_________________
Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[Roycroft]

JustbRun fox up front and then you don't have to worry about all this technical stuff, just add or remove a couple of psi, and you have all that technical spring rate stuff sorted. Hey len really if you buy a set of pep shocks you can be contacted 24/7 with technical support? Does that include when your at your day job? Bet your boss would like that.
_________________
2012 sponsors, Working on it.

[ning]

Quote:

best Quad I have ever ridden off the production line

so it may be the best quad off the production line, but generally no one races a quad off the production line. or over here the top guys dont. even tho the ktm is supposed to be race ready at the price, it gets all the extras the same as other bikes. Both my Honda and yamaha are awesome. Its just Personal preferance

so i rekon saying so and so won on a ktm, see they are the best, it really just comes down on the rider.the pros chop and change brands, then win coz they are great riders. .
oh and to be honest i read the first few pages then got bored. . i couldnt be bothered reading that much about a ktm.
_________________
Race In Peace Chillibin

[Losty Down Under]

Hey Nina, talk about KTMs, how's Craig doing on his over there? Haven't heard much out of him lately.
_________________
If it's not upside down, you're not trying hard enough!

Paul

[ATV PRO]

Roycroft wrote:

JustbRun fox up front and then you don't have to worry about all this technical stuff, just add or remove a couple of psi, and you have all that technical spring rate stuff sorted. Hey len really if you buy a set of pep shocks you can be contacted 24/7 with technical support? Does that include when your at your day job? Bet your boss would like that.

Mick you have absolutley no idea of what you are talking about.
It's all about the technical stuff to get the best set up.
If you want a very average set up ,just bolt a set of fronts on .
People who hunt revenue offer front or rear separately.
A much better set up is to have a custom built front and rear PEP or rebuilds to suit personal application and rider ability
I had an enquiry on Front PEP and rather than take his money , I suggested he saves up and gets front and rear to set it up correctly.
As mentioned Fox are ok for an off the shelf product but I have been told by quite a few people its a pain to keep air in them and you are always having to mess with them.
Most people work during the week and I take and make most of my calls in the evening when people have finished work and they themselves are best contacted.
It's the weekends that both Wayne and I assist with set up and when most people need it .
My customers are more than happy with this arrangement.

Last edited by ATV PRO on Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:18 pm; edited 2 times in total

[ATV PRO]

ning wrote:

Quote: best Quad I have ever ridden off the production line so it may be the best quad off the production line, but generally no one races a quad off the production line. or over here the top guys dont. even tho the ktm is supposed to be race ready at the price, it gets all the extras the same as other bikes. Both my Honda and yamaha are awesome. Its just Personal preferance so i rekon saying so and so won on a ktm, see they are the best, it really just comes down on the rider.the pros chop and change brands, then win coz they are great riders. . oh and to be honest i read the first few pages then got bored. . i couldnt be bothered reading that much about a ktm.

No other MX Quad gets 50Hp from the Production line.
KTM can be made more competative with less money.
I am glad you read some of this thread Nina ,thanks .
_________________
Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[ATV PRO]

Well done Ryan !

Thanks for your wins on the KTM-ATV NRG-PEP Machine

QUOTES

Ryan Lancaster – Pro Class


"In my first moto at Bunbury, I got the holeshot and pulled a good 30 second lead," said Lancaster. "On the last lap I had a crash which allowed Luke Gainsford to pass me for the win, and I took second.


"I made up for it in the last two motos taking the holeshot on the KTM ATV 450 SX, and then checked out for a comfortable win.


"I was looking forward to this round because I got to test out my new PEP Suspension and it handled really well. I’m leading the Championship now by approx 30 points, which has put me in a comfortable position going into the next round."
_________________
Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[ATV PRO]

505power wrote:

im currently rebuilding my ktm505sx and its done 55hours all that is wrong with it is the ring was worn, everthing else is perfect, and whats wrong with there shocks i hear that people are puting the WP's on yamahas???? i dont no thats just what i heard.

We are having the same succes with the engines.
The WP are real good for an off the production line race quad and Ryan Lancaster has been winning races on them .
They can be improved (like anything)by custom valving and spring weights or PEP Upgrade
_________________
Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[t&l performance]

somebody take this thread of repeat

[yogie]

700quad wrote:

somebody take this thread of repeat

hijack it.... talk about real mens quads.



_________________
2005 KFX700
With a few bells and whistles
and the twin yoshi's
American Star A-arms, tie rods
elka stickers
Shorty Shifter
I have a Waco
rossco gave me a flexx sticker
honda thumb
Great at climbing trees
durablue stickers

[ATV PRO]

yogie wrote:

700quad wrote: somebody take this thread of repeat hijack it.... talk about real mens quads.

Hey Yogi want some cheese with that whine


_________________
Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[yogie]

ATV NRG wrote:

Hey Yogi want some cheese with that whine

I never spoil the red with anything...
_________________
2005 KFX700
With a few bells and whistles
and the twin yoshi's
American Star A-arms, tie rods
elka stickers
Shorty Shifter
I have a Waco
rossco gave me a flexx sticker
honda thumb
Great at climbing trees
durablue stickers

[gazman]

I loved all the tech stuff but its now bordering on spam.
gazman

[mitch41]

this turned from a dicussion about the KTMs to a discussion about shocks lol