OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[muzzgit]

Went down south over the Easter weekend with a few others. We hit some bush tracks and sand dunes pretty hard (for me) Me on my TRX400, 2 x DS650 and a Rappy 700.

There were some stretches of track with knarly whoops which I handled fairly well on the first 2 days. The other guys didn't seem to gain any ground on me and a few times I was quicker.

On the last few days I kept getting all crossed up and continually heading off into the bush. No damage to me or my bike but I whacked my helmet on tree branches a few times. I kept crossing up to the right, overcorrecting and going left into the bush.

WHY IS THIS SO?

Is it a simple problem?
_________________
Cheers,
MUZZ
06 YFM 700R mine
03 KFX 400 hers

[scottydig]

How many beers did you drink the previous night !!!! Maybe your drinking arm might have been a tad tired causing you to over correct. But seriously check tie-rods and all steering joints to make sure nothing has come loose or broken. My young blokes 400ex is often coming loose and I make it a habit to check it regularly. thanks scotty.
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06 700 raptor 50th anniversary

[Quadromatic]

check your tyres. one could of been flater then the other

[Airborne_Hillbilly]

Hey i had the same problem with the wife's china quad on the weekend it turn out to be the rear tyre so after i fixed it i went and picked on my biggest jump the 10 footer @ 45 deg. & got it to top speed which is a pavement pounding 40kph and hit the jump WWHHOOOO i got about 10 foot air from the jump with a perfect take off and the landing was great but i then noticed the rear tyre with a bit of axle attached to it over taking me and then i knew i was gonna cop some abuse from the wife.

[JONO]

apart from checking that everything is tight you may want to invest in a steering dampner, although if everything had remained tight then i don't see why you would be handling the woops worse towards the end of the weekend than you were at the start. Unless they were getting bigger and more worn which is where a dampner would come in handy if you find your steering getting bounced around a bit

[bullet]

I reckon the guys above are right, but might add...
that if it was toward the weekend, maybe you were just hitting them faster.
Whoops sort of have a critical speed, where if you are riding them you can only go so fast before it goes pear shaped.
Once you reach that speed you kind of have to eitherslow down 1kmh or take it up a knotch, select a higher gear, keep the revs up and stay on top all the way.
Lot's of balls involved in getting it right.

I can't do it, but t's great when you see someone who can.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[JONO]

bullet wrote:

I reckon the guys above are right, but might add... that if it was toward the weekend, maybe you were just hitting them faster. Whoops sort of have a critical speed, where if you are riding them you can only go so fast before it goes pear shaped. Once you reach that speed you kind of have to eitherslow down 1kmh or take it up a knotch, select a higher gear, keep the revs up and stay on top all the way. Lot's of balls involved in getting it right. I can't do it, but t's great when you see someone who can.

yeah bullets right, and make sure you watch lines change and see if they're hollowing out in between which will kick your back wheels in the air. Its also incredible watching someone that is able to skim them remembering back to adam siemensma at maffra state round on stutters before a bad trip over the bars and paul worth on the stutters at maffra nationals.

[Quad Squad]

JONO wrote:

bullet wrote: I reckon the guys above are right, but might add... that if it was toward the weekend, maybe you were just hitting them faster. Whoops sort of have a critical speed, where if you are riding them you can only go so fast before it goes pear shaped. Once you reach that speed you kind of have to eitherslow down 1kmh or take it up a knotch, select a higher gear, keep the revs up and stay on top all the way. Lot's of balls involved in getting it right. I can't do it, but t's great when you see someone who can. yeah bullets right, and make sure you watch lines change and see if they're hollowing out in between which will kick your back wheels in the air. Its also incredible watching someone that is able to skim them remembering back to adam siemensma at maffra state round on stutters before a bad trip over the bars and paul worth on the stutters at maffra nationals.

Too right...theres a fine line between getting them right or ending up on your head. Chris Brenton had them dialled at the Swan Hill Tri State a few weeks ago...What a sight!

Muzz...I'll add this too...suspension setup is a key component to be able to skim the whoops and if you can keep a stock 400EX in a straight line your doing a top job already. I think you may have found the limits of your stock suspension.
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[OZ_450]

JONO wrote:

apart from checking that everything is tight you may want to invest in a steering dampner, although if everything had remained tight then i don't see why you would be handling the woops worse towards the end of the weekend than you were at the start. Unless they were getting bigger and more worn which is where a dampner would come in handy if you find your steering getting bounced around a bit

steering dampner what the hell you experts guys are fairies step up be a man ride with none
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black covered in 5.7 powered oversize quad
model vx ss 350 hahaha
enough bass to compensate for lack of skills
Empty Wallet Racing proudly on track for GM Motorsport

[muzzgit]

Thanks for the insight guys.

I'll put a steering damper on it this weekend.

There I was thinking I could keep up with experienced riders on DS650's and a 700R on my little old 400EX. I haven't ridden a dirt bike for 30 years and I've had my quad less than a year! Silly me
_________________
Cheers,
MUZZ
06 YFM 700R mine
03 KFX 400 hers

[JONO]

Your 400ex should be more than capable of keeping up in the woops with a ds650 and a raptor 700. You'll should have more control over the bike through the stutters from the reduced weight, after that it comes down to working on technique (get right off the back and smash through, or try to rhythm, can't see you skimming on a 400 with stock shocks) or get your shocks retuned, Adam at Quadsquad will more than likely be able to get a stadium kit or modify them himself so that the stock shocks perform a bit better and you'll more than likely be able to hit the whoops a fair bit smoother after that.

[OZ_450]

be like me get Jono to pay to get ya shocks done for ya hey jono adam waiting for cheque from ya so he will send my shocks back lol hahah
_________________
black covered in 5.7 powered oversize quad
model vx ss 350 hahaha
enough bass to compensate for lack of skills
Empty Wallet Racing proudly on track for GM Motorsport

[JONO]

think you'll be waiting a while than, got some steel bars that bolt straight into the lt-r stock shock positions off camerons bike when the shocks get sent away just so we can roll it around. You can borrow them haha, dunno how they'll be for your pussy little arm pump though hahaha

[muzzgit]

Thanks guys. I've scored some "take off" shocks from an '08 450R and I've ordered some +2+1 A-Arms, so we'll see how we go with that.

I was gonna spend what little money I have on a high comp piston/cams/head porting but me thinks better handling comes first.
_________________
Cheers,
MUZZ
06 YFM 700R mine
03 KFX 400 hers

[Hudson]

Good idea muzzgit. I don't think anyone here that has any brains will argue with you on that one
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You Can Fix Alot Of Things In This World But...

You Can't Fix Stupid!!!

[JONO]

OZ_450 wrote:

JONO wrote: apart from checking that everything is tight you may want to invest in a steering dampner, although if everything had remained tight then i don't see why you would be handling the woops worse towards the end of the weekend than you were at the start. Unless they were getting bigger and more worn which is where a dampner would come in handy if you find your steering getting bounced around a bit steering dampner what the hell you experts guys are fairies step up be a man ride with none

haha says you the one who was sooking like a girl after colac hahaha
need start doing a bit of fitness training i think brad.
Definitely a good choice getting suspension first muzzgit, no point adding more power if you're struggling to handle the bike as is.

[OZ_450]

yes yes jono but i did do 2 classes and i am a old fart lol oh one steering dampener fitted today hahah
_________________
black covered in 5.7 powered oversize quad
model vx ss 350 hahaha
enough bass to compensate for lack of skills
Empty Wallet Racing proudly on track for GM Motorsport

[JONO]

OZ_450 wrote:

yes yes jono but i did do 2 classes and i am a old fart lol oh one steering dampener fitted today hahah

haha now who's the softy, you riding SA? i'll be there, on an all new machine....

[OZ_450]

na tim gets out monday and we going to crustys friday night

dont have shocks back paid adam for most of it just cant really afford to pay the last bit by next week so wont be there ...not really fussed as i am not really any competition to be in epxert anyway lol maybe just do vic series and maybe toolleen in expert and may just do vets in vics this year and nats in vets you expert guys out of my league
_________________
black covered in 5.7 powered oversize quad
model vx ss 350 hahaha
enough bass to compensate for lack of skills
Empty Wallet Racing proudly on track for GM Motorsport

[JONO]

aww what, thats annoying, the more the better, and you'll never be competition unless you get some practice in and race haha

[OZ_450]

practice whats that??? and na finances are a little bit of a prob at moment so racing can wait never know 2 ltrs could end up for sale soon lol and a trailer haha
_________________
black covered in 5.7 powered oversize quad
model vx ss 350 hahaha
enough bass to compensate for lack of skills
Empty Wallet Racing proudly on track for GM Motorsport

[bullet]

muzzgit wrote:

Thanks guys. I've scored some "take off" shocks from an '08 450R and I've ordered some +2+1 A-Arms, so we'll see how we go with that. I was gonna spend what little money I have on a high comp piston/cams/head porting but me thinks better handling comes first.

Hey Muzzgit, From what i've heard (and some Honda experience) the 400's are a fairly well balanced bike.
+2 arms are a top idea... but +1 forward might shift your centre of weight toward the rear.
The Hondas dont really need this like maybe a Banshee might.
I think the +1 forward arms are usually recommended for use with a + 1.25 swing arm on the Hondas.
If you find it a bit more understeery, or it tends to loop out when you've got it real sideways...
Try running the front ride height 1/4 inch lower to get some more weight back on the front.
You might not notice this if your new supension is just so much better than what it was anyway.

tell us how it goes
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[muzzgit]

Thanks Bullet, Brett at Legend Quad seems to think it's the way to go. I don't have a clue, but I will keep your advice in mind.

You are right, the 400ex is ballanced quite well. I don't have much experience in these things, I've never ridden a 450 but the bikes I have been on, DS650, rappy 700, KFX 400, the Honda 400 goes where I want when I want without too much fuss (except lotsa whoops) so I hope this is all for the better.
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Cheers,
MUZZ
06 YFM 700R mine
03 KFX 400 hers

[muzzgit]

Bullit you were spot on !!!!

I've had +2+1 A Arms plus the 450 shocks put on plus a steering damper and I went for broke (literally) and had the engine work done as well.

Now it loops out badly. Power slides and cornering is now unpredictable and it is really twitchy in a straight line. The preload on the front shocks can't go any lower!

Hopefully this is an adjustment issue, and maybe new springs in the shocks.

PS. the engine mods were worth every penny.
_________________
Cheers,
MUZZ
06 YFM 700R mine
03 KFX 400 hers

Last edited by muzzgit on Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

[priesty]

The 450r front shocks are nearly 1/2" taller than the stock ex suspension,
so if, as Bullet suggests, your +2+1 arms are shifting your centre of gravity more to the rear, then the combination of these two factors will make it worse. Most people who have gone for the 450r fr shocks suggest getting them revalved for the ex. Check out the "ATV riders" forum, theres bags of info on there about these issues.
Just one more thought when you fitted your a-arms, did you check your toe-in afterwards, as I know from experience any toe-out makes them very skittish.
cheers....hope ya get it sorted.
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