OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[old55]

A new name

Recreational D (D = Development) - what about Rookie Class - Freshman Class this would entail - members of a club, atv club, non competitive riders to start with any bike they wish, in front of the grid line without the pressures of racing. Thus if they develop from there they would then go into Clubman which is the first level of Club racing.

That way starting in front of the grid, you dont pay all the one day race lic's but only for one day rec lic.

This should encourage riders from all warps and aspects of riding to have a go.

Unfortunately the riders from the "BUSH" like to get out and just ride, they dont like the fact that they have to wait for 3 or 4 races of 10 minutes, its a known fact. We've been in that situation and have progressed from there. So would I hope more riders that enjoy this sport.

Just my two bobs worth(okay $1.00 worth)

Production should be renamed "Manufacturers" to stop all this what we can do and waht we cant do - otherwise its all too hard as you can well see by all these posts.

Leanne

[PeteW]

I reckon the majority of this year is a bad example to use as a model for a new class structure, next year in VIC there will be a much bigger Expert class and there has been in previous years too.

If you look back over the last couple of years, especially at the nats then there is no way that you could expect all the guys that were in both expert and clubman to line up together.

even just to look back at last years nats (I'm not even going to bring this years into the equation) sure there would have been a full grid, but there would have been a massive difference between the front and rear of the field. and I know for a fact that you would have had too many to fit into 1 class at the 05 and 06 nats
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[bullet]

How does this look so far.
(to draft something up that at this stage is nothing more than a suggestion)

CLUBMAN
half price entry.
gate start but no points, no championship status.
Asked to move up during season as soon as the new rider has developed some confidence.
Minimum number of riders may stay back to keep class open and demonstrate class level to interested riders.
Slow or recovering injury riders may stay in class until asked to progress.
No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply)

PRODUCTION
Factory standard championship class, modifications as listed below only.
Choice of tyres in factory size, choice of handlebars and controls, choice of all fluids (fuel to 98ron pulp), Choice of spring rates to suit rider body weight in same design as factory standard spring.
Strictly no modification that might be seen to alter engine power output or noise levels.
Non standard rim replacement allowed with commonly commercially available closest to factory standard option.
(all other GCR limitations apply)

INTERMEDIATE
Experienced rider, championship class.
No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply)

VETS
Experienced rider, championship class of restricted lap racing in age grouped classes.
Number of laps to be specified in SR's (generally aimed between more than 6 and less than 7 minutes race time for fastest in field).
Classes are nominally; Over 35 to 44. and Over 45.
Both classes race together unless over full grid of entrants.
No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply)

PRO
Elite rider championship class.
No changes to current, 15 or 20min +1 motos etc etc
No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply)

WOMENS
Female entrants only, championship class.
No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply)

I only put the Womens class last becaust I did not want to place the ladies in the skill level order or speed of bikes racing etc.

How does that sit for compromise, so far...
Did I miss anything...
Please keep this aimed at 'sport growth' not just what suits you, you club, your dealership, your manufacturer etc.
If we achieve sport growth all those other benefits should come.
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Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

Last edited by bullet on Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

[bullet]

$1.00 well spent Leanne. Good suggestions.

Petey, remember you are talking about the Nats though.
We should expect the levels to be higher.
We need numbers in club level stuff, so there are more people considering the Nats etc.

SA does not run Pro, Prody or Vets, because we do'nt have the numbers.
There are only two senior open classe for the blokes, Clubman and Expert.
So both those classes are pretty quick because there is nowhere to go up to.
We can't start a Pro class for 2 or 3 Pros (especially if a bloke or 2 miss a race every now and then)

Womens is doing really well over here and growing all the time.
I suspect that is because of a lot of local work that a couple of a special ladies put in a few years back.
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Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

Last edited by bullet on Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

[noodles]

bullet wrote:

PRODUCTION Factory standard championship class, modifications as listed below only. Choice of tyres in factory size, choice of handlebars and controls, choice of all fluids (fuel to 98ron pulp), Choice of spring rates to suit rider body weight in same design as factory standard spring. Strictly no modification that might be seen to alter engine power output or noise levels. Non standard rim replacement allowed with commonly commercially available closest to factory standard option. (all other GCR limitations apply) .

Choice of spring rates should not be allowed as this is a performance mod and will lead to "well if i can do that then i should be able to revalve" A bike can be ridden with the factory spring rates by anyone and the rider would have to ride accordingly if they dont match the spring rate...
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[bullet]

noodles wrote:

bullet wrote: PRODUCTION Factory standard championship class, modifications as listed below only. Choice of tyres in factory size, choice of handlebars and controls, choice of all fluids (fuel to 98ron pulp), Choice of spring rates to suit rider body weight in same design as factory standard spring. Strictly no modification that might be seen to alter engine power output or noise levels. Non standard rim replacement allowed with commonly commercially available closest to factory standard option. (all other GCR limitations apply) . Choice of spring rates should not be allowed as this is a performance mod and will lead to "well if i can do that then i should be able to revalve" A bike can be ridden with the factory spring rates by anyone and the rider would have to ride accordingly if they dont match the spring rate...

Fair point Noodles.
It should be based around riding what the factory give you.
On a small jump track like this years Nats soft would have been good...
whereas at MtGambier or tracks like that the heavier sprung bikes would do well.

I was just trying to fit the really big and really little guys in.
but yeah good point, that maybe should be removed, lets see what the others say.
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[PeteW]

How did this get from a disscussion about production class to a complete re-design of the class structure.....

time to get back on topic.......
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[azza450]

Quote:

CLUBMAN half price entry. gate start but no points, no championship status. Asked to move up during season as soon as the new rider has developed some confidence. Minimum number of riders may stay back to keep class open and demonstrate class level to interested riders. Slow or recovering injury riders may stay in class until asked to progress. No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) PRODUCTION Factory standard championship class, modifications as listed below only. Choice of tyres in factory size, choice of handlebars and controls, choice of all fluids (fuel to 98ron pulp), Choice of spring rates to suit rider body weight in same design as factory standard spring. Strictly no modification that might be seen to alter engine power output or noise levels. Non standard rim replacement allowed with commonly commercially available closest to factory standard option. (all other GCR limitations apply)

Sounds pretty good to me.

There should be more encouragement for riders to move up in classes for their own benefit as well as that of the sport. At the end of the day you're only as good as the people you ride against. In hindsight I was nowhere near ready to move up to the Pro class when I did (swapper), but I feel that it allowed my riding to improve at a much faster rate. The class structure should encourage more riders to do the same.

The gap between the expert and clubman riders at the nationals for the last two years has been no bigger than the gap between the front and rear of the Pro field.

Last edited by azza450 on Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

[bullet]

PeteW wrote:

How did this get from a disscussion about production class to a complete re-design of the class structure..... time to get back on topic.......

You're holding on Pete.

It's a good thing that is happening here.
The topic (over a few posts) has been opening up the sport, attracting new riders, improving manufacturer support over quad racing, and lowering entry level classes.

It has been stated that Production was originally aimed at the entry level.
It's aim has failed completely and undeniably.
It's still a great class though, just needs a bit of re-aiming.
And I thank the QRCV for the fantastic original concept.

I would never suggest changing Pros, those guys do a great job.
And Azza's point above is right on the topic.
Spreading the classes apart and encouraging progression.

No complete re-design of class restructure required at all.
Just minor tweakings of 2 existing classes.
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Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[cowchaser]

Ovens your still s swapper!!!!!!!!!! A fast swapper but a swpper all the same!!!!!
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[PeteW]

bullet wrote:

It has been stated that Production was originally aimed at the entry level. It's aim has failed completely and undeniably. It's still a great class though, just needs a bit of re-aiming. And I thank the QRCV for the fantastic original concept.

I agree that it has failed as an entry level class and this has been a healthy disscussion about possible changes to the rules, although not really relevant unless someone else starts running production other than in VIC.

Quote:

I would never suggest changing Pros, those guys do a great job. And Azza's point above is right on the topic. Spreading the classes apart and encouraging progression.

Only having 2 grading classes isn't really spreading the classes it is condensing them

Quote:

And you Petey are an experienced rider. A very experienced rider who could hit the track on any bike. You need to change the way you see the entry level class. By the book definition you are a definite 'Intermediate rider'. And you would do really well in intermediate if all the other people like you moved up and left 'Clubman' for the novice riders.

why would I want to go and race in Expert though, you've seen me ride recently, I'm clearly not an Expert level MX rider in fitness so why would I want to do races any longer than 4 laps (I think I proved that quite comprehensivley in Tassie by being pretty well off the pace even for clubman standards) so that would put me personally off from entering an MX event, even if it was to make up numbers.
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[Mrs_Gaitar]

bullet wrote:

How does this look so far. (to draft something up that at this stage is nothing more than a suggestion) CLUBMAN half price entry. gate start but no points, no championship status. Asked to move up during season as soon as the new rider has developed some confidence. Minimum number of riders may stay back to keep class open and demonstrate class level to interested riders. Slow or recovering injury riders may stay in class until asked to progress. No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) PRODUCTION Factory standard championship class, modifications as listed below only. Choice of tyres in factory size, choice of handlebars and controls, choice of all fluids (fuel to 98ron pulp), Choice of spring rates to suit rider body weight in same design as factory standard spring. Strictly no modification that might be seen to alter engine power output or noise levels. Non standard rim replacement allowed with commonly commercially available closest to factory standard option. (all other GCR limitations apply) INTERMEDIATE Experienced rider, championship class. No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) VETS Experienced rider, championship class of restricted lap racing in age grouped classes. Number of laps to be specified in SR's (generally aimed between more than 6 and less than 7 minutes race time for fastest in field). Classes are nominally; Over 35 to 44. and Over 45. Both classes race together unless over full grid of entrants. No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) PRO Elite rider championship class. No changes to current, 15 or 20min +1 motos etc etc No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) WOMENS Female entrants only, championship class. No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) I only put the Womens class last becaust I did not want to place the ladies in the skill level order or speed of bikes racing etc. How does that sit for compromise, so far... Did I miss anything... Please keep this aimed at 'sport growth' not just what suits you, you club, your dealership, your manufacturer etc. If we achieve sport growth all those other benefits should come.

I think you need a new class to cover what your after, Clubmans is a recognised C Grade class in Motocrosss 2 & 4 wheel.
It is covered under the MOM's page 143
17.7.1
Senior Grades Motocross
17.7.1.1
a) Pro Class
b) Intermediate Class (why we in WA call it intermediate not expert)
c) Clubman

I see the results of regrading every year, and most are happy to sit in Clubmans as its 4 laps, but they still want to win clubmans, even when theyre not happy at the consequences of winning(upgrade)
Also the Juniors coming out of 200-300cc at 16 really need that first season or at least a couple of events in Clubmans, to learn to race with seniors.( Even though they are very good racers, it is a whole different ball game being on a 450.
If there was a new class(lower than clubman) the juniors would obviously skip that and go straight through to clubmans.
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[bullet]

Mrs_Gaitar wrote:

bullet wrote: How does this look so far. (to draft something up that at this stage is nothing more than a suggestion) CLUBMAN half price entry. gate start but no points, no championship status. Asked to move up during season as soon as the new rider has developed some confidence. Minimum number of riders may stay back to keep class open and demonstrate class level to interested riders. Slow or recovering injury riders may stay in class until asked to progress. No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) PRODUCTION Factory standard championship class, modifications as listed below only. Choice of tyres in factory size, choice of handlebars and controls, choice of all fluids (fuel to 98ron pulp), Choice of spring rates to suit rider body weight in same design as factory standard spring. Strictly no modification that might be seen to alter engine power output or noise levels. Non standard rim replacement allowed with commonly commercially available closest to factory standard option. (all other GCR limitations apply) INTERMEDIATE Experienced rider, championship class. No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) VETS Experienced rider, championship class of restricted lap racing in age grouped classes. Number of laps to be specified in SR's (generally aimed between more than 6 and less than 7 minutes race time for fastest in field). Classes are nominally; Over 35 to 44. and Over 45. Both classes race together unless over full grid of entrants. No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) PRO Elite rider championship class. No changes to current, 15 or 20min +1 motos etc etc No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) WOMENS Female entrants only, championship class. No machine restrictions (all GCR limitations apply) I only put the Womens class last becaust I did not want to place the ladies in the skill level order or speed of bikes racing etc. How does that sit for compromise, so far... Did I miss anything... Please keep this aimed at 'sport growth' not just what suits you, you club, your dealership, your manufacturer etc. If we achieve sport growth all those other benefits should come. I think you need a new class to cover what your after, Clubmans is a recognised C Grade class in Motocrosss 2 & 4 wheel. It is covered under the MOM's page 143 17.7.1 Senior Grades Motocross 17.7.1.1 a) Pro Class b) Intermediate Class (why we in WA call it intermediate not expert) c) Clubman I see the results of regrading every year, and most are happy to sit in Clubmans as its 4 laps, but they still want to win clubmans, even when theyre not happy at the consequences of winning(upgrade) Also the Juniors coming out of 200-300cc at 16 really need that first season or at least a couple of events in Clubmans, to learn to race with seniors.( Even though they are very good racers, it is a whole different ball game being on a 450. If there was a new class(lower than clubman) the juniors would obviously skip that and go straight through to clubmans.

Yeah I too like the name Intermediate.
Someone made up the word Expert which to me means the same as Professional anyway.

And good point on the GCR's as far as Clubman goes.
I just don't think we (generally) have the numbers for more classes.
Definitely not like 2 wheelers do anyway.
Examples from 2 wheelers and what the U.S. are doing can help give us direction but we can't copy them with the base we have.
So maybe Clubman should drop down to be non-champ or even non-comp in states rounds.
It would have to help riders 'get in' and 'get out' when they are ready.
Like you said a lot of Clubbies like the winner status and try to hang around just for that.
If they all went up, the back of Intermediate would be slower, and they would all have some good racing there.

Meanwhile the newies are having a go at Clubman.
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[Mrs_Gaitar]

Sorry to stick on 2 wheelers for another post but Clubmans are our biggest class at Senior State round in WA, we actuallly had to have 2 classes of clubman lites this year, and 1 class of clubman open... The junior solos populate these classes each year and keep these full every year! the intermediates and Pro classes are heaps smaller.


Back to quads

Our clubman Quad class wasnt that big and was combined with Vets, and there was close to a full grid. The ATV Club(non MA) actually had a couple of "Come and try Motocross" days at AJS and BSA Clubs, they got over 50 riders to come for a try.... at an MA Club , handed out a pile of info on racing, and it looks like those riders will fill our clubman class next season.

Most people know weve had almost a full grid of juniors racing 200-300cc and all 4 16yr olds went through to seniors this year. Next year there is 4 more, with 3 more juniors to clubmans half way through the year....

Someone mentioned dont make this club or state specific, but you cant make rules that hinder a program already in place in one state.

We dont race production here- but are willing to look at it, pretty sure it will mostly be pro's though with the rules in their current form.
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[Mrs_Gaitar]

As far as I'm aware I think in Queensland the 2 wheelers run
Pro
Expert
intermediate
Clubman

or is it intermediate then expert?

someone will know !
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[Huskygoat]

Back to quads

Our clubman Quad class wasnt that big and was combined with Vets, and there was close to a full grid. The ATV Club(non MA) actually had a couple of "Come and try Motocross" days at AJS and BSA Clubs, they got over 50 riders to come for a try.... at an MA Club , handed out a pile of info on racing, and it looks like those riders will fill our clubman class next season.


Black clubs seem to do well everywhere. What have they got that we haven't ?
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[Mrs_Gaitar]

Well, not so many rules... laid back attitude...
can bend the rules...
No committment from most, just rock up and ride if you feel like it...
did I say, not so many rules?

mostly social riding and racing is fun !
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[Huskygoat]

Your a gem mrs gaitar
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[John Mags]

OK guys and girls I think this has been brought up in the past and I think this is how it is in the US (correct me if I am wrong) but PRO riders cannot enter any other class. Reason being to give others a chance in the other classes I suppose, but it sounds fair enough to me. May even get more guys entering Vets and Production if they know they are not competing against Pro riders.

This should be implimented for the 09 nats.

Just my thoughts.
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[PeteW]

Huskygoat wrote:

Black clubs seem to do well everywhere. What have they got that we haven't ?

Tracks usually, open key, no licences or permits to race or practise......
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[old55]

John Mags wrote:

OK guys and girls I think this has been brought up in the past and I think this is how it is in the US (correct me if I am wrong) but PRO riders cannot enter any other class. Reason being to give others a chance in the other classes I suppose, but it sounds fair enough to me. May even get more guys entering Vets and Production if they know they are not competing against Pro riders. This should be implimented for the 09 nats. Just my thoughts.

One we aren't the US and two we dont have the volume of riders as they do in the US.

Two if one class is penalised then so be all of them - One race one rider - as it is now the Young Pro's can only do the one race ie Pro, the Vets can do Vets 35 or 40 plus, Production and Pro(or Expert or Intermediate)

Women can do Vets, Womens and Clubman (and or Intermediate)

No you wont get more guys entering vets, if they wanted to race they would have been out there now and please dont use the excuse its because they are racing a Pro rider, sheesh to become a vet dont you have to go through being most of the other classes to get to it.