OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[47industries]

I think the biggest problem is that the class is shrinking every season.
Something needs to change or the class as we know it will be gone.
If the current set up was ideal, it would be growing, not shrinking.
Mick@47
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[bullet]

PeteW wrote:

I just said tyres B not wheels..... Name the shops that carry the OEM std replacement tyres..... on top of that, if you were to be pedantic about it, OEM replacement tyres are often double the price of aftermarket so your ritchie rich argument doesn't really work there. (anyone who works for a multi-franchise dealer feel free to wade in with some OEM tyre prices here) maybe there should be a control tyre rule in place instead (with the official support of a tyre manufactuer of course) so that at least the major consumable for racing is affordable.

Yeah sorry Petey, you did say 'just tyres' but others have been saying rims too.
I was adressing the broarder concept for the majority.

I don't know about all the stock tyres, But I know for sure that replacement tyres were redily available at normal aftermarket prices for my TRX450R and definitely are for my Can-Am.
Suzuki are just another Dunlop tyre too.
Lots of OEM use Maxis, Dunlop or ITP.
I know Austraco can get any ITP's I need.

Which ones cant you get?
And is there a very close equivalent (ie same tyre casing but slightly different tread between models only).

Linc, I think factory adjustment is pretty clear.
You know, like anything you can adjust trackside with a $5 spanner.
No machining, reprogramming, nothing.
Just simple stuff that the manufacturer put there that my mum could adjust for me.
(i still have trouble with my shoelaces, that's why I wear Volleys)
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[PeteW]

bullet wrote:

I don't know about all the stock tyres, But I know for sure that replacement tyres were redily available at normal aftermarket prices for my TRX450R and definitely are for my Can-Am. Suzuki are just another Dunlop tyre too. Lots of OEM use Maxis, Dunlop or ITP. I know Austraco can get any ITP's I need. Which ones cant you get? And is there a very close equivalent (ie same tyre casing but slightly different tread between models only).

most of the Japs use dunlop as OEM. who carries dunlops here as aftermarket tyres that are readily available?

Even if there is a close equivalent then that makes it not an OEM tyre then doesn't it?
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[Linc]

[quote="bullet"]

PeteW wrote:

Linc, I think factory adjustment is pretty clear. You know, like anything you can adjust trackside with a $5 spanner. No machining, reprogramming, nothing. Just simple stuff that the manufacturer put there that my mum could adjust for me. (i still have trouble with my shoelaces, that's why I wear Volleys)

Thats it, factory adjustment is not clear by what you are saying "like anything you can adjust trackside with a $5 spanner" What you have suggested is silly and un-defineable.

All STOCK class acheives is putting money in the factories pocket because we have to purchase their products instead of an aftermarket equivelent........who cares if a rider wants to use a different bend of bars or (god forbid) if they purchase a tyre thats not a factory 2 ply piece of crap that wares out fast or gets punchures if you stare at it for too long.

Is removing your baffle a factory adjustment - if not then why is it removable in the first place.

Is jetting to suit conditions a factory adjustment?

It sounds like you want the rules changed to suit your own adjenda .

At the moment the QRCV rules are simple & defined; either work in the rules or change classes.

Linc

[cowchaser]

Bullet you are deluded if you think people are going to go out and spend there hard erned on those peice of crap 2 ply tires that come with the bikes from new just so they can race production
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Smitty

[bullet]

[quote="Linc"][quote="bullet"]

PeteW wrote:

Is removing your baffle a factory adjustment - if not then why is it removable in the first place. Is jetting to suit conditions a factory adjustment? It sounds like you want the rules changed to suit your own adjenda . At the moment the QRCV rules are simple & defined; either work in the rules or change classes. Linc

Removing the baffle is not adjusting a factory adjustment.
It's removing a part.
Just like air box lids.

If you get the jets in a little plastic bag when you buy the quad...
Those little jets are factory provided adjustment.
That would be the most extreme example of 'factory adjustment' and I'm not sure if its even relavent to any current models.

There is not heat in this Linc.
Next year I will race within the rules and spend what ever is required to get the best out of what ever that legally fits in.
Even though I don't believe that is in the spirit of the class.
(I did not take full advantage of the rules this year, no exhaust, no fuel controller, factor rims etc)

You say that the QRCV rules are simple and defined.
I've been into them for a while now and I still can't remember them all.
Anyone else I have asked throughout the year has the same problem.
New pople who have looked at them can't believe it.

For example: Production = Bog stog factory standard, no exceptions.
that's simple.
But besides that point, we are only discussing what might work best.

There is only one thing on my agenda here...
and that is Sport Growth.

Your suggestion to "change classes" if you don't like it might instantly kill the class.
If Tait does not race Prody next year, I pull out and maybe one other rider...
The class in gone.

I have been 100% committed to the class this year and intend to be next year.
I'd just like to see it grow not continue the downward dwindling.
I think (hope) slower, cheaper and more simple will benefit the class.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[old55]

Huskygoat wrote:

Is there any consensus on production class? rules? I think we could run it NT but I would like the guys to be compliant for the nationals. Huskygoat Doesn't seem to be anything in 2008 handbook?

Do you think by now Huskygoat you may have a precise answer to your question.

Healthy debate though

Last edited by old55 on Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

[bullet]

cowchaser wrote:

Bullet you are deluded if you think people are going to go out and spend there hard erned on those peice of crap 2 ply tires that come with the bikes from new just so they can race production

Think back to the AJS Nationals of 06 Smitty....

Half the entrants in a lot of classes put stock standard Honda TRX450 Dunlop tyres on to win.
They obviously thought there was no better tyre for the job.
(The proof was in the numbers)

Perhaps they were all deluded.

Do you think Manufactureres deliberately go out of their way to put the worst tyres they can find on their bikes to market them?
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[bullet]

cowchaser wrote:

Bullet you are deluded if you think people are going to go out and spend there hard erned on those peice of crap 2 ply tires that come with the bikes from new just so they can race production

Thats the good bit Smitty...
You don't have to go out and buy them, they come on the quad already.
They do it at 'Production'.
And in most casses a 'stock' bike will get anything from half a season to a full season out of them.
I have never had a puncture in MX for 3 years now.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[cowchaser]

And how many tracks in the last 2 years have you ridden on that suit that tire? None.

And what about the poor bloke that buys a 2nd hand quad with aftermarket tires?
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Smitty

[fatty1]

I got 2 want 1

[Huskygoat]

ok Stony M waldmann and me just had a unofficial chat about it . 2 1/2 to 1/2

was for bone stock but then we agreed no one within the club would ride it.

then Eddie drove in with his brand new Ktm 525 bone stock yelling lets go racing you old farts ..

Next Question what about 525s ? will they run in this class
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[old55]

If its out of the box - YEP

Or is it now down to "Race Ready Production" as to "Social Production"

[bullet]

Huskygoat wrote:

then Eddie drove in with his brand new Ktm 525 bone stock yelling lets go racing you old farts .. Next Question what about 525s ? will they run in this class

Yep, even a 700 Raptor would be ok.
We would open him with welcome arms
(I'm sure somebody famous said that)

If the Prody rules stay the same next year 'half worked' 505SX's are going to be tough
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Linc]

Huskygoat wrote:

ok Stony M waldmann and me just had a unofficial chat about it . 2 1/2 to 1/2 was for bone stock but then we agreed no one within the club would ride it.

Bingo........the class was originally proposed as a starter/introduction class and from what I remember it was so someone with a few mods could compete without the expence of a-arms/axles this included someone who purchased a second hand quad......it was made to be cheap racing.

We all agreed that everyone changes something on their quad so "stock" wasn't really a viable option.

Remember the mods allowed were the maximum mods permitted not "compusory mods" if you turned up on a bog stock new YFZ450 it was the class for you. If you turned up on a second hand TRX400EX with Pro-Taper bars and a slip-on, this was the class for you.

Production Class came about before the introducton of the LTR, DS and KTM450's.

Now you can win a states championship (Bullet) on a "stock" quad and if so why do we even need to seperate Production from PRO, Expert and Clubman. A few years ago this would not have happened. The machinery didn't exist and to compete was expensive.

The way it's headded, if Production Class became popular we would just end up with Production-A and Production-B and that kind of defeats the whole idea in the first place........You may as well just race in PRO, Expert or Clubman. Proddy class wasn't meant to be a second class altogether where PRO's and Experts could race a brand new quad and fight it out for Manufacturer bragging rights.

This is what has happened and under those circumstances we have failed the public in providing them with an entry level racing class.

I have no objection to a "Manufacturer/OEM/STOCK Class" and if this is what the racers want then propose it to your club and I'm sure they would give it a crack even if it's only as a test.

[cowchaser]

Huskygoat wrote:

ok Stony M waldmann and me just had a unofficial chat about it . 2 1/2 to 1/2 was for bone stock but then we agreed no one within the club would ride it. then Eddie drove in with his brand new Ktm 525 bone stock yelling lets go racing you old farts .. Next Question what about 525s ? will they run in this class

My point exactly!!!!!!

Of course the 525 can run
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Smitty

[450yam2]

The class really seems to me like a waste of time, there is already a class that caters for the new inexperinced rider, it is called clubman. All of the new generation 450 machines can be raced at this level and be relatively competitive with little or no mods.
A bone stock production class will show which manufacturer has the most MX ready quad out of the box but will do nothing to bring new riders to the class.
Lining up against a New 505 KTM on a banshee in bone stock class will be no less intimidating than lining up against a pro level 450 in clubman so you are back to the situation you are trying to avoid.
Could the reason that the class is getting smaller be that most riders are modifying their bikes!

[bullet]

450yam2 wrote:

The class really seems to me like a waste of time, there is already a class that caters for the new inexperinced rider, it is called clubman. All of the new generation 450 machines can be raced at this level and be relatively competitive with little or no mods. A bone stock production class will show which manufacturer has the most MX ready quad out of the box but will do nothing to bring new riders to the class. Lining up against a New 505 KTM on a banshee in bone stock class will be no less intimidating than lining up against a pro level 450 in clubman so you are back to the situation you are trying to avoid. Could the reason that the class is getting smaller be that most riders are modifying their bikes!

Yeah that is pretty much where we are, and most blokes in Prody race another class as well anyway.
Prody does not take riders out of other classes which is a good thing.
But it's not like too many new riders are diving into Clubman either.
I reckon we have to slow one of them down a whole lot.

I would think new riders would rather line up to a stock 505 than one thats twice as loud and has 10% more hp than a stock 505.
You can line up in all the other classes with those modded bikes...
Should production be different.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Huskygoat]

All Jokes aside I think A bone stock class is where we are heading in NT. I believe the manufactures are heading that way and in time this will be the most supported by a long long way. Clubman is for the slightly modify less skilled rider. We are looking at this Production class as a transition to other faster blinged classes. Its not my place to comment but current status ISN'T attracting the rider it was intended for. This should be a championship class and maybe our clubs can attract more sponsorship dollars to run events.

Sorry if thats not what everybody wanted to hear but quad riding is changing and we got to move with it and maybe in 3-4 years time this debate will happen again with a new direction . I can't say how successful this will be if at all but the bike sponsor budget is huge and I can't see how we pull a lot of this money unless we follow bikes " buy a RMZ450 and go race it" and be competitive in a class that matters.
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Last edited by Huskygoat on Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:30 pm; edited 2 times in total

[v8toy]

ive just read through this whole thread and my opinion is why look at a prody class why not class it as experiance hence amature, intermediate, pro it would only take once race to find out that the guy on the prod bike is floggin the rest so move him to intermediate next race or next meet if he turns up.
To me if i see joe blow turn up with every bolt on and bit of power he can find etc etc im not even gonna think he's fast until the first race is finished theres no good him havin all that gear and not being able to hold onto the bloody thing theres plenty of guys wether being bush guys or racers that could flog him cause he physically cant ride it so move him to amature maybe.

there is so many second hand bikes out there that have slip ons, airfilters, carby mods, wheels, suspension etc etc etc that i guy would buy but isnt fast so why stick him with the bigger guns but if he could ride the wheels of it move him up.

me myself would class me as a intermediate as i feel im reasonably fast but am on a totally stock bike (ktm 450) but also was the same b i modded my ltr so does that entitle me to enter the prod class and win possibly by a reasonable margin.
by no means would i think of entering the pro class because i might beat 1 or 2 too the first corner then physically and bike wise would get flogged and just hinder there racing.

at the end of the day it can be called on by the official on the day if he thinks im to fast or to slow move me id be happy and sure most others would be too.

cheers
stewy
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[HoleshotQR#24]

I can't see what's wrong with Production being a competitive class... but creating a more even playing field for guys without massive budgets, sponsorship or both. There are guys that are reasonably fast but have other priorities that prevent them from investing 20 or 30 thou in a fully blown race bike that would put them on a level field with the rest in the open/modified classes.

In any class of racing there's only one winner, so if you're not the fastest out there you either need train and get better or deal with finishing last or mid pack. The aim of this Production Class should take the $$$$ out of the competition and leave it just to skill level, race craft and riding ability.

If and when the numbers support it, then what would be wrong with a Production A and Production B class??
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[HSR]

Bullet, I fail to see how having to remember all the rules makes it difficult to understand them " just read through them as required or nessessary" because if we all use that justification for change the the MOM published by MA is in real trouble because I`m f#*&ked if i can remember every rule in that yet I compete within it`s rules and agree to do so every time I enter an MA sanctioned race meeting.
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[bullet]

HSR wrote:

Bullet, I fail to see how having to remember all the rules makes it difficult to understand them " just read through them as required or nessessary" because if we all use that justification for change the the MOM published by MA is in real trouble because I`m f#*&ked if i can remember every rule in that yet I compete within it`s rules and agree to do so every time I enter an MA sanctioned race meeting.

Yeah, fair cop Huey.
Mine came out a bit wrong.
I sort of meant, when people ask me over a beer "whats involved in this production class you run in" it gets pretty hard to answer if they keep sounding interested.
It's just not very straight forward.
People say stuff like "so what, I could do this, but I can't do that, why the hell is that?"
What do you say.
Even in a circle of general conversation with people like yourself and other QRCV committee people, when the conversation turns to Prody rules, understandings, reasons why, opinions and all that stuff seem to differ quite a bit.

Mate, like you said though, if anyone really wants to know just look the rules up, they have been on the QRCV website for years, and are very complete.
Good work QRCV.

For the record, I love the Prody class... every single race, the bikes and all the competitors.
I just think it is time to change something to open up our sport at a less intimidating, easier and cheaper level.
I believe a more Factory prody class might help do that.

The current Prody field is faster than Expert, I cant see that that was in the original 'get more bush bashers to the track' intention.
If we have an opportunity to bring Prody back a gear, maybe we should look at it.
A grid of sewing machines would at least be something different for a senior quad class.
We could probably attract manufacturer sponsorship with that 'something different' too.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[HSR]

That`s OK dude, but if people judge the rules by what they can`t do as opposed to what they can do then their outlook is always going to be negative in any case, if they don`t want to race under those particular rules then there is no reason why they cannot enter their bike in absolute stock trim albeit with nerfs and kill switch fitted and save themselves all this confusion. .
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[noodles]

I think one of the problems with the current classes is the misconception about clubman class, In my opinion this class is for the less experianced rider who wants to race, ie entry level. A major flaw with this class is that some of the riders are reluctant to step up to the next level, be that expert or in other disciplines known as intermediate. I for one am in no way fast but do consider myself to be experienced in which case i believe i should be in the expert class. but unfortunately for me i am not so fit and the amount of laps in expert/intermediate would kill me so this is why i choose to race in vets (3 laps). In SA we had the problem this year where we did not have enough numbers to run a vets class (well we did but then there was no-one left in the other classes) Our MX commitee came up with a reasonable solution to this problem and that was to create a reduced lap race format that does not have the restrictions of a vets class (age) or a prod class (mods) but allows for the not so serious racer to still go out and have some good fun on an MX track. For want of a better name this class was called Quadlites and has the potential to be a good class to increase numbers within the sport. without haing too many restrictions or stigmas like that of being in a "novice" class
I guess this is mainly for husky as another option to get the bush rider interested in mx. Apart from that i stick by what i have said previously and that is a production bike is not a modified bike and clubman is the entry level class. Any one with any decent sort of experience in racing should be in the intermediate/expert class.simple not to many rules to worry about and classes for all riders.
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