OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[Hudson]

WARNING: This post is not aimed at any person/s and not meant to offend those such person/s.

That said I'm throwing out the bullsh!t card.

To say that this class is aimed at bringing in the new racer is crap. Most people who race this class have mutiple bikes at their disposal. The quality of rider in this class is much higher than any clubman class or what I think is the entry level class. New riders in MX are not people that have gone to the dealer, bought a new bike and show up at a race meet and enter the "bone stock" class. To say that they are is bullsh!t.

If it's meant to be a budget level class then wouldn't most peolpe who are trying to get the best bang for their buck buy one of the many bikes that are for sale, some of the best on this site, that are a couple of years old race bike thats atleast a few grand cheaper than new and got all the bells and whistles already fitted.

Just a little example from the nationals.
Prod class: Fastest lap, 1:40.561
Slowest lap, 1:45.596

Clubman: Fastest lap, 1:45.917
Slowest lap, 2:02.311

Now these lap time differences were over the whole weekend. Most races in Prod, the fastest lap difference between the riders was 2 seconds. For the Clubman, the fastest lap difference between the riders was 10 seconds. I would think any new riders would be looking at the clubman class whether they have a "bone stock" bike or not.

These are the reasons I believe this debate for the rules is only for the sponsored riders. So they can say "The manufactuer that sponsors me is better than the one that sponsors you".

If we can cut the crap about bringing new people to the sport through a production class and call it what it is then we will move forward. All the reports I heard from the nationals was that the Prod class was some of the best racing all weekend. I believe that this class has plenty of potential but not at the entry level where some would like us to believe.

If we want new riders in the sport then showing the potential new riders the great atmosphere and comradery within this great sport is the way to do it. Racing is just the thing that lets us all get together and talk sh!t, especially at the end of the day when the beers come out, and enjoy the company of like minded people who enjoy doing what makes them happy.
_________________
You Can Fix Alot Of Things In This World But...

You Can't Fix Stupid!!!

[cowchaser]

Yeah I think you might be on to somthing there Hudo even if it was not origanaly intended to be
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Smitty

[Huskygoat]

Your wrong Hudson. The reason I asked for the rules in my first post is that the sport quads are " race ready " now there are plenty of people who buy these who I think are potential racer. thats it end of story. No way I new this debate was going to happen. There are trail riders out there that I can get racing but these guys have issues like I don't wearing a helmet let alone a set of boots.

Years ago when Thumper nats happened I was living in QLD I drove to Dargle to race the very first one 1994 It was the best until the pro riders turned up. Nothing they could do about because they were on showroom bikes.

The Nationals will have pro riders riding production we can't stop that as manufacturers want to see their product win.

If you allow some mods the rules get bent. And they guy who does all the work at the track gets the sh!ts because you won't bend the rules for him.

This class will struggle but in time this will be the biggest class by a long long way.

We need incentives from the clubs and shops . The aftermarket shops should support this class as well because a fair few of these guys will become racers in other classes.

I can see problems with Bone Stock but even bigger problems with mods.
Maybe the reason newbies don't ride it

Just what happens to the guy who bought a polaris with sports pack off th show room floor? See I'm not winning any friends there
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Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[Gaz #5]

I have to agree with bullet on this production to me means stock out of the box exept for nerfs and kill switch. Is there a beginers class were they can try out mx and be assesed by pros on there ability and the be put into appropiate class after a certain period of racing say 5 mx mettings.

[Hudson]

Budget argument doesn't make sense. There are many bikes on this site alone for sale that are much cheaper than new and have many more parts on them that take them out of production class. To say that it's for a cheaper class of racing just doesn't add up.

For it being a "new riders" class that doesn't make sense either.

A quick question for Husky, Bullet and Smitty in particular but also for anyone else with an opinion.

Two of your mates ring you and want to get into riding and racing quads. Both these guys are on a budget. They ask you with their 10k to 12k budget what they should buy. A couple of year old bike with some extras which they think is great value for money or a brand spanka they know shouldn't break down for a while?

I know that I would recommend the one that has a few more things on it and its cheaper also.

Now for the sake of my next question lets say that one bought new and the other bought used. They've both got used to riding and now are thinking of racing. Again they ring you and ask your opinion of what class they should enter. The decission has already been made for the guy who bought used but for the guy who still has an absolute bone stock bike what class do you tell him? Production or Clubman?

In any of the Tri state rounds or the Vic state 8 rounds you would think in clubman they would be more competitive and most likely more comfortable knowing that they are racing against guys of there same skill level. The arugument that "richy rich" has last years pro bike doesn't matter because the idea of the mutiple class is they are skill level classes not what you have on your bike classes. If he is to fast for his class he gets pushed up.

Ideally all the riders in each class are reasonably close in skill and lap times. This works for all classes EXECPT Production and Vets. Both these classes aren't based on skill level. One is what's on your bike and the other is when's your birthday.

So to say that Production class is for new riders and budget riders just really doesn't make sense. If you want more riders at race meets what's the big deal about them going into clubman??? That's what the class was designed for wasn't it??? A class for the less experienced new riders???

Now for nation wide rules I can't agree more but for using the excuse that this class is for new riders.....Stop p!ssing in my pocket and telling me it's raining!!!!

Oh yeah one more thing I tell my wife...You are allowed to have an opinion...even though it's wrong you're still allowed to have it
_________________
You Can Fix Alot Of Things In This World But...

You Can't Fix Stupid!!!

[Huskygoat]

Your opinion is most important as well as everybody else. I don't know what other guys on here are but I'm not a rocket scientist . Have you read the rules that were posted .. these rules can be read 15 different ways to suit whoever is reading them. Bone stock there is no arguments no options. yes wheels will bend , quads will run hot , guys will bounce off the back of them because their rear shock to stiff and I hear you BUT when your in the position of running the events their is plenty to do rather than sought out arguments or rules.

I tell you what a newcomer thinks " that Waldo he's sick" I gotta spend $30 000 on my quad even to line up next to him but i know I can take him in the first corner.

If a guy came along to NT races with a tricked up 05 450 Yami . He says production class is me not so loud ,fast, these guys aren't clearing the table top. with in ten minutes I could find stock parts to fit his quad for next meet.

And in time when he moves up to other classes puts bling back on but on standard parts ready for the next guy.


I can see were your coming from but their is always somebody willing to break the rules.

What about the guy who bought Joe Byrds quad he's going race clubman or vets
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Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[bullet]

Cool, lots of good stuff stuff still coming out.

Spin your "bu!!"profanity removed"" point around Hudson and we are saying the same thing.
The production class 'should' be for newer riders on stock bikes.
Like I said it should ba a class that any Pro-rider would get bored with.
We could change the rules to lower the hp, speed and noise of these machines to make it a slower and easier class.
That is exactly my aim.
I believe it will make the class more attractive as well as the second achievement of being a true factory standard class.

We can still have some rules to the class, but I would like to see them much less complicated than the current QRCV rules.

We could limit bikes to 38 hp.
That would not have to be measured as we could go off the manufacturers specs and bikes are left stock (baffle in)

I would like to see the difference in the race times you put up reversed.
Prody should be slower.
Like hiring those 5hp go-carts with your mates, that sort of racing.

We could also not allow cross entry of Pro, Expert or other specific classes.

Same point on the race times Hudson...
Take Nick Shivers out of Expert and the Production class was quicker than Expert ant the Nats.
I don't think that's right.

And I'm pretty sure Mark Webber could not do F1 lap times in a Hyundia.
Why can't we have at least one senior male class that is seperated by bike, not skill level.
It will have to be the biggest bike difference possible.
Hense the Absolutely dead stock suggestion. Or extra spark arrestor fitted to get under 38 hp if over fron the factory.
(now i'm just adding controversial points, sorry)

The biggest mod outside of kill switch and Nerfs I would like to see would be choice of lubricants and maybe allow grip wiring
(Giving up my Flex bars is gunna hurt )

Protests an nit-picking in the top 3 of this class should be commonplace.
The positive would be brough to the sport...
Crawling all over the different models, getting into the specs etc.
It would be a real interest point and something different to the class.
But like every other production class racing, so why shouldn't quads have it.

Husky, don't feel like you started an ugly debate here.
This debate is a very healthy one that had to happen.
Your contribution is spot on and seeing as you don't have a history with this class, but have the 'right' aim...
You might be best seated to throw the best suggestion in.
Which ever way it goes, the result should be a National rule...
Even if, dread it, the QRCV rules don't change.

I know for a fact that many people have spoken to me throughout the year about why they did not enter Production is...
Because they couldn't.
One little rule disqualified their bike.

In the other Poll running, I'll bet most of the people voting for the Modified bike rule would be excluded because they missed one.
It gets way more complicated that you think.

It might only be a minor point but Bone stock is at least easy.
But like Smitty has always been concerned, we don't want to kill the class, we need to grow it.
So what will work best for the 'future'.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Mrs_Gaitar]

Smithy- what a great idea for attracting new members...
Run an ATV only race day(like in vic)
and run a novice class- uncompetitive to attract new members.
Unfortunate that didnt follow through, to what you initially wanted, maybe the current committee can review it

I reckon if we did that over here, we could probably attract a full grid of non licensed riders for "go" , but we dont run quad only days.

Maybe that idea shouldve been called "Novice", not production?

and at the Nationals- as it seems the manufaturers want to get on board with production, what about a new class called - Manufacturers Class- effectively at the end of the day, anyone in that class wont be a novice.
Run at the Nationals only !
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www.waquadmx.com

[Huskygoat]

Production class has prestige if you call novice you just killed it.

All events run by TQA next year are quads only on our quads only track.

I'm prepared to run races of two if I have too because its less intimidating.

Yes " ride day " riders will get 3 motos free just to have a go
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Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[Huskygoat]

Should we seek the opinion of all the state club presidents as a lot of them view this forum ... Manufactures have put submissions to MA in the past and is the wrong tack.. Its better going though our local MA body with the same proposal.. Quad advisory committee to MA needs to be spoken to even though their a toothless tiger. Sorry Stony

I don't how 38hp rule would work? off a spec sheet?

Lubricants ? do you mean fuel if so we already have pump gas. ( you wouldn't think so if you were on the grid at Finke)

I reckon pro's aren't in the spirit of the class. plenty of other races for them.
_________________
Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[bullet]

Yeah I don't know about the hp thing either, it could get difficult.
Although it would have been easy right up to 2009.
It would have to be just done off a specs sheet.
All quads pick up 5 to 10% more hp with the addition of a slip on or even standard muffler de-baffling.
It like manufacturers deliberately race to build the fastest engine possible and then strangle it for sale to the public.
The only sense in it is the emmisoins and noise polution factor.
The good thing is that all manufacturers seem to strangle them down to the same hp and noise levels.
That's why 'baffles in' would help create a fairer field.

Removing baffles make varying differences to different models.
On a Honda it is a big help, on a Can-Am it does nothing.
Once again a 'baffles in' rule keeps consistency, and is easy to understand.

Next years KTM might ba an exception to this.
It apears they have come out with something closer to a race muffler and gone away from the usual strangling standard.
I don't know the hp figures but if it is over 38 hp (for example) there is a good chance that KTM might make a quiet core insert or restricting baffle.

I think this would be the only one that would need a look at, and although we are getting a few votes here...
How many riders would it effect, 1 or 2 in Australia maybe.

I ran my QRCV spec Production bike all year in South Australias MX round in Expert Class (top class).
SO production 'bike' riders in states with lower number can just run in whatever classes are available to them until the Tri-State, Vics and Nationals come up (good training )
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Huskygoat]

Hudson do they have Production in the USA? and what are their rules?

Wow forget that . I just looked what a nightmare
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Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[HSR]

As someone who was directley involved in the framing of the Victorian production rules may I say firstly that they came about as the direct result of a debate not to dissimilar to this , But I must also say that they were framed to cover all production BASED classes ( most importantly the junior classes) and the arguments put forward by interested parties included the cost of engine rebuilds where manufacturers did not offer o`size pistons etc but as the engines are genetically engineered then "cross enginieering "was allowed to accomadate these entrants (most of the support for this came from S.A.), the wheel argument was based mainly on the cost argument, as for the muffler/jetting issues these had already been allowed and used in the class and at the time no one wanted to reverse this issue ( and it was very heatedly disscussed at the time ) so when the Suzuki came on the market with EFI the same allowances for them as the carb models was only fair but was done with very strict conditions, I can assure all of you that these rules were framed with the best interests of all the parties who made submissions and were voted on and passed at QRCV committee level for use in Victoria (the only state that has contiuously run production classes in Australia and those rules have been adopted at the last 3 Nationals because they were the only ones in place at the time) and were not ment to cause derission,conflict or confussion , in closing I would like to say that I believe every one has a legitimate aurgument on this topic and I agree with all of you, but when you write or frame rules you MUST consider ALL the proposals by ALL the parties involved and a compramise is what will result, but if we can get a National consensus on this issue I am sure the QRCV will support it . Good Luck.
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we do not stop racing because we grow old
we grow old because we stop racing

[HSR]

As someone who was directley involved in the framing of the Victorian production rules may I say firstly that they came about as the direct result of a debate not to dissimilar to this , But I must also say that they were framed to cover all production BASED classes ( most importantly the junior classes) and the arguments put forward by interested parties included the cost of engine rebuilds where manufacturers did not offer o`size pistons etc but as the engines are genetically engineered then "cross enginieering "was allowed to accomadate these entrants (most of the support for this came from S.A.), the wheel argument was based mainly on the cost argument, as for the muffler/jetting issues these had already been allowed and used in the class and at the time no one wanted to reverse this issue ( and it was very heatedly disscussed at the time ) so when the Suzuki came on the market with EFI the same allowances for them as the carb models was only fair but was done with very strict conditions, I can assure all of you that these rules were framed with the best interests of all the parties who made submissions and were voted on and passed at QRCV committee level for use in Victoria (the only state that has contiuously run production classes in Australia and those rules have been adopted at the last 3 Nationals because they were the only ones in place at the time) and were not ment to cause derission,conflict or confussion , in closing I would like to say that I believe every one has a legitimate aurgument on this topic and I agree with all of you, but when you write or frame rules you MUST consider ALL the proposals by ALL the parties involved and a compramise is what will result, but if we can get a National consensus on this issue I am sure the QRCV will support it . Good Luck.
_________________
we do not stop racing because we grow old
we grow old because we stop racing

[old55]

Huskygoat wrote:

Quad advisory committee to MA needs to be spoken to even though their a toothless tiger. Sorry Stony I don't how 38hp rule would work? off a spec sheet? Lubricants ? do you mean fuel if so we already have pump gas. ( you wouldn't think so if you were on the grid at Finke) I reckon pro's aren't in the spirit of the class. plenty of other races for them.

Suggest you check the teeth of the rest of the NQAC before making that comment -

Smithy's idea is the right way of doing it - You dont want to call it a Novice/Ametuer Race but thats exactly what it is. Its for the beginner riders and bush riders that want to have a go and compete with RIDERS OF THE SAME CAPABILITIES.

Production is just another name but be assured the bikes that are produced now are far from what we refer to or think of as Production, Production is for the Manufacturers in my eyes STRAIGHT out of the box - NO MOD's Whatsoever except the kill switch and nerf bars.

Leanne

Last edited by old55 on Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

[bullet]

Hi HSR.
I think theis topic is going very well, having said that I can't see what it will wind up to though.
I think everyone appreciates and respects the history of the current QRCV Prody rules.
If it weren't for the fact that no new riders were in the class and all the riders are very experienced industry people, we could leave the rules alone.
But sometimes change is healthy.
I'd like to see that rules made more attractive, cheaper and easier to the new rider.
And also see the laps slower and bikes in general looking a bit more tame.

Seeing as you are soooo old and wise in the ways of these things Huey...
After running maybe another week or so, how do you suggest these contributions be wound up.

I think Husky might be best seated to come up with something to get us most of the way there.
The current Prody racers seem to prefer the 'closer to bone stock' option, but really none of them are new riders like I believe any new rules should be aimed at.
Anyone doing any racing at all has overcome those first time at the line fears and is probably a step ahead of the 'new' riders maybe we should be aiming at.
Existing racers also have a head start in understanding the complexities of our sport too, so lets keep anything new as simple as possible for new riders.

I really hope we come up with a different class.
Because at the moment Clubman, Intermediate, Production and Vets are all near on the same. Great, but the same.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[HSR]

Bullett, thanks for the soooo old and wise Compliment, but ultimatley the answer lies in whether or not we can get the numbers into the class, the level of modification is mute if no one enters the class for whatever reason ( too many modifications / too few modifications ) I for one was in favor of limiting exhausts and other modifications in the begining and was defeted on those issues by the prevailing administrators at the time by the legitimate arguments that were presented then, the solution to this debate is a national forum and consensus on not only this but all issues where state issues overide the national good of the sport but this will not happen until we are united and represented by a Commission within MA that has the interests of the Quad fraternity as its ONLY focus. ( Please do not take this as a dig or affront to the NQAC they do a great job ) but we are NOT equal to other disiplines because we do not represent ourselves.
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we do not stop racing because we grow old
we grow old because we stop racing

[OZ_450]

well technically the term production means the BASE model so any sports model (R models) are not a production model

eg a SS or a CLUBSPORT is not your production model commodore now is it

haha just had to throw that in there to open a can of worms as technically in most motor sports production DOES mean the BASE model not the sports or enhanced models so that would count the yfz450r out and also any other model that has a base and race version doh
_________________
black covered in 5.7 powered oversize quad
model vx ss 350 hahaha
enough bass to compensate for lack of skills
Empty Wallet Racing proudly on track for GM Motorsport

[OZ_450]

bullet wrote:

Because at the moment Clubman, Intermediate, Production and Vets are all near on the same. Great, but the same.

hmmm bullet VETS are in a league of their own more numbers and crazier riders then we get in clubmen haha
_________________
black covered in 5.7 powered oversize quad
model vx ss 350 hahaha
enough bass to compensate for lack of skills
Empty Wallet Racing proudly on track for GM Motorsport

[bullet]

HSR wrote:

...the solution to this debate is a national forum and consensus on not only this but all issues where state issues overide the national good of the sport but this will not happen until we are united and represented by a Commission within MA that has the interests of the Quad fraternity as its ONLY focus. ( Please do not take this as a dig or affront to the NQAC they do a great job ) but we are NOT equal to other disiplines because we do not represent ourselves.

The QRCV rules have worked for the last 3 years.
Why would we not just do it that way and refer to them in SR's.
I guess if we don't change anything (which we don't have to do) the current QRCV rules will stay the same for next year.

But then if a couple of riders drop production next year, we are only talking about another couple left in the country

The original party who decided the QRCV rules, could meet to make some minor adjustments after reviewing the last year or two's racing.
A bit of fine tuning with sport growth in mind can't be a bad idea.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[noodles]

It seems to me that we are not actually debating the rules of production class but more so probably looking for a new name for the current class that is production. The class that is currently called production is not even close to production, it is more like a limited mods class and that is probably a better name for it "Limited" . A production class has production bikes in it not modified ones end of story, How can you possibly say "what mods can i do to my bike to still enter production class" the answer is none its a production class.
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say NO! to ball sports

[PeteW]

bullet wrote:

The original party who decided the QRCV rules, could meet to make some minor adjustments after reviewing the last year or two's racing. A bit of fine tuning with sport growth in mind can't be a bad idea.

great, now its gonna come up at our meeting tonight

when these rules were drafted last year as a result it took more than several 3hr meetings......

My feelings on the proddy rules have changed a little over the last little while.
I think it's time to separate the junior rules from the senior rules to start with and maybe it is time to instigate the SENIOR Production class as a true stock class. As has been stated previously in this thread it has not really turned out to be the entry level class that it was expected to be but more or less the field of the proddy class at most events over the last 3 years has included at least 1 pro rider and more often than not most of the rest have been at least expert level riders, so as I say maybe it is time for a change.

My only concession to any changes that could be made to a production quad would be to be able to change/modify the controls for personal preference (ie, throttles, grips etc.) and to include to use of hand guards. Tyres too is another allowance that would need to be made. Of course that is without the obvious rules of having to comply with the MA regulations of having Nerfs and Kill switch fitted as well as having the lights removed.

It would also be time to bring up the fact that the use of the term "production" in pretty much most forms of motorsport refers to the fact that the vehicles are available as a production line item (rather than a prototype or special race model) and can than be modified from there, this also brings up the issue of homoglation of the models so that there is an eligibility list of what you can use in such a class.

I would proposed to re-name the senior class something like "SuperStock" to reflect this and so keep the definition of the term "Production" for it's true definition for the junior classes (which should stay same under the current production rules)
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www.thumbpump.com
www.dirtcomp.com.au

[bullet]

PeteW wrote:

My only concession to any changes that could be made to a production quad would be to be able to change/modify the controls for personal preference (ie, throttles, grips etc.) and to include to use of hand guards.

No Pete, no twisties!
You'll just have to buy a GasGas

Seriously, maybe a twist grip replace ment to quads should be allowed.
But definitely not the fitting of a Honda thumb throttle to a Polaris, or Yamaha throttle to Suzuki etc.
If not changing to twist grip the standard thumb throttle should remain.

Like Noodles said 'Production = factory' thats it.
Why would we allow choice of tyres???
To change the package a bit to get a racing advantage maybe???
That defeats the purpose of the word production and having a 'diferent' class.
There is no reason not to run factory tyres because they are all easily available aftermarket and all the same price.

Picture this, first race of the season, two brand new Kwakas lined up side by side.
One with stock wheels and tyres but Richy Rich went out and spent an extra $1,000 on new 1/2 inch wider rims and low profile race tyres suited to the track for the day.
What a joke
Richy Rich here, might have spent an extra $2,000 so that he has a good set of special race tyres for wet tracks or dry.
Ask him and he says, I don't use the standard rubbish.

Go home Richy, It's "production" class.
Spend another $20,000 and have a go at Pro's if you want to play that game.

Have fun at your meeting tonight Pete
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[PeteW]

I just said tyres B not wheels.....

Name the shops that carry the OEM std replacement tyres.....

on top of that, if you were to be pedantic about it, OEM replacement tyres are often double the price of aftermarket so your ritchie rich argument doesn't really work there. (anyone who works for a multi-franchise dealer feel free to wade in with some OEM tyre prices here)

maybe there should be a control tyre rule in place instead (with the official support of a tyre manufactuer of course) so that at least the major consumable for racing is affordable.
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www.thumbpump.com
www.dirtcomp.com.au

[Linc]

PRO, Expert & Clubman are open classes where you can pretty much turn up on what ever you want and race as long as it falls within the MA rules for a quad; they are Non-Production (prototype) classes. eg: if it had a custom frame, a Yammy engine and Honda suspension, thats OK...........just a few years ago this sort of stuff was the norm at the PRO level.

It the USA they used to have 2 PRO classes, PRO & PRO-Production. PRO was anything goes and PRO-Production was Production based.

Production is a class where all machines are produced by an OEM.
Modifications of a "Production" machine are restricted but allowed.
Production is NOT stock......STOCK is stock.

What is STOCK? can you adjust suspension from factory spec? it has clickers on the shocks but it was delivered in a certain way and should you be able to adjust that? what about the possition of the stock bars?.......not such a stupid stupid question........if you can adjust the stock suspension why can't you adjust the stock ECU??????. This debate can go on forever.

If your opinion is "it should be all stock except for blah blah blah" then it's not STOCK is it. The QRCV debated this for quite a while and I think they came up with a very good balance between, affordability, practicality and reality.

If you want a "STOCK" class, introduce this concept to your club and do it, niether the QRCV or MA will stop you.

Linc