OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[ATV PRO]

Hi all,just pulled this off an engine builders web site,make you wonder bout EFI ?

QUOTE(BigVince @ Aug 26 2006, 02:28 PM)
dammit... i thought for sure we were going to get an EFI. oh we'll... i can't wait another year... i got to get me another bike. 07 kick... here i come...


Why does everyone say this? No one realizes what a PAIN IN THE ASS EFI is.

Dont believe me? Go buy an LTR and do a motor build on it.

If I could get my LTR to run off a Lectron the EFI BS would be long gone.

Sorry, this is not directed towards anyone, just venting.



--------------------

Racers Edge of AZ
"Dont be scared"

Alky Stock Bore TRX Hill bike
Old ladies-06 LTR450 56 horse duner

Lay Low, Stay Calm
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Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[cowchaser]

Carbs are for Dinosaurs like you Lenny boy I've done some mild motor work to mine and I don't want anymore grunt. Just wack a Vortex Intercepter on it and it's fully tuneable just like a carb but 100 time easyer
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Smitty

[ATV PRO]

Cool Smitty I herd your quads goin well !
These Guys in the states are doin TT and sand drags and they need a little more than the average bear,heres another comment for info ...

Definitely has it's advantages, but definitely has it's disadvantages.

I've written EFI tuning software and burned plenty of calibrations in my time (back when you actually had to unsolder chips and erase them with a UV box) and love playing with the systems on a couple of my cars - but I don't really want it on my quad. Too many extra and unnecessary electronics/points of failure, too much additional expense, and too many specialized parts when it comes time to modify - for what it gains me over what an FCR will do - especially considering they're open loop systems.

Another thing everyone seems to forget is that EFI is NOT a power adder. A properly tuned EFI system will not produce more power than a properly tuned carb system.

Answer me this -- what type of system is the LT-R - AlphaN, MAP, etc? I haven't checked one out very closely or looked in a service manual. Anyone had a calibration file they can send me to sneak a peek at?

This is good stuff ,maybe I should of moved it to the tech section...Sorry
Smitty Tyranasaurus rex to you ! I wish
Cheers Len
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Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[cowchaser]

I worried about all that electronic stuff when they first come out but it hasn't give me a minuites trouble yet touch wood nor have I heard of it (except for a couple of fuel pump issues) And to be honest i'm shithouse at tuning a carb and to lazy to do it properly, but with just a flick of some dials on the Vortex I can give the yella girl as much or little fuel as she needs.
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Smitty

[ashnery]

See if you can buy a decent new car with a carburetor on it ?
so easy to tune with your labtop/computer sitting next to the bike while on the dyno only way to go ...aint that the truth...dont be afraid of it power commander or vortex just make sure you can get the sofware with it or it anit worth "profanity removed" my 02

[Ozzy84]

cars are only efi because of polution laws, bikes are a little different,

however after owning both efi and carby raptors at the same time, i would definatly say efi is the go, constant, any where, any time grunt.

efi is a whole lot better than a carby in my opinion

[Linc]

Goodnbad wrote:

Another thing everyone seems to forget is that EFI is NOT a power adder. A properly tuned EFI system will not produce more power than a properly tuned carb system.

Yeah but EFI shines everywhere up to WOT; part throttle responce and control with EFI shits on carby's.

What will you say when Honda bring out EFI?????

[cowchaser]

The power is just soooo Smmmoooth
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Smitty

[Todd 127]

Unlike yourself hey !!!

[PeteW]

the EFI systems that come as OEM equip on dirtbikes/quads at the moment is'nt aimed at being able to be that flexible just yet. they are plenty for what we need to do with them and if your going for huge HP than there will always be something that won't cut it. once all the majors have EFI it will be a different story though as they will all have to lift their game for tunabilityand the like as they have with road bike EFI over the past couple of years. Look at where the MotoGP bike are now with their latest EFI systems.
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www.thumbpump.com
www.dirtcomp.com.au

[ATV PRO]

ashnery wrote:

See if you can buy a decent new car with a carburetor on it ? so easy to tune with your labtop/computer sitting next to the bike while on the dyno only way to go ...aint that the truth...dont be afraid of it power commander or vortex just make sure you can get the sofware with it or it anit worth "profanity removed" my 02

Decent cars ?They dont make em anymore!
Give me Ford 351 4V Windsor in a GT 40 Replica Body/Chassis with a 650 dp Holly Carb with about 6k worth of work on the engine this will blow most of your Worked fuel injected WRX... There are plenty of Drag Cars that are the fastest quarter mile cars in the world and guess what ???They use Carbies!
Just my tbw.
Cheers Len
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Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[ATV PRO]

Linc wrote:

Goodnbad wrote: Another thing everyone seems to forget is that EFI is NOT a power adder. A properly tuned EFI system will not produce more power than a properly tuned carb system. Yeah but EFI shines everywhere up to WOT; part throttle responce and control with EFI shits on carby's. What will you say when Honda bring out EFI?????

This Guy in the States you question Linc ,knows a heap about engines and knows that you can easily Tune an FCR Carby through the range and I now know you know very little about Injection or Carbs by your comment above .Are you a Qualified Mechanic?Or Efi Tech?or are you just opinionated? They are both metering devises and carefull jetting will give you equal results.Yes Honda will go that way too...So what? Doesnt mean carbies are no good.
Cheers Len
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Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[ATV PRO]

PeteW wrote:

the EFI systems that come as OEM equip on dirtbikes/quads at the moment is'nt aimed at being able to be that flexible just yet. they are plenty for what we need to do with them and if your going for huge HP than there will always be something that won't cut it. once all the majors have EFI it will be a different story though as they will all have to lift their game for tunabilityand the like as they have with road bike EFI over the past couple of years. Look at where the MotoGP bike are now with their latest EFI systems.

Thanks Pete,you are right ,we are not there yet and I agree we have a way to go yet before we can rave about EFI ...in Quads at the moment the fastest and best Production Motors in a single 450 4 stroke are Honda CRF /TRX built in the USA producing a phenominal 69.5 hp at the rear wheel and thats right its an FCR Carbie. Dan Lamey(Joe Bird),Dee Manchek (John Natali)and Ron Hamp (Founder of the great Web 208 921 camshaft) build these engines.There is not an EFI engine even close to these numbers right now,try 58hp on the same dyno by a zook !
I will keep my Honda with a Carby for now and a while to come!
Cheers Len
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Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[cowchaser]

Goodnbad wrote:

Linc wrote: Goodnbad wrote: Another thing everyone seems to forget is that EFI is NOT a power adder. A properly tuned EFI system will not produce more power than a properly tuned carb system. Yeah but EFI shines everywhere up to WOT; part throttle responce and control with EFI shits on carby's. What will you say when Honda bring out EFI????? This Guy in the States you question Linc ,knows a heap about engines and knows that you can easily Tune an FCR Carby through the range and I now know you know very little about Injection or Carbs by your comment above .Are you a Qualified Mechanic?Or Efi Tech?or are you just opinionated? They are both metering devises and carefull jetting will give you equal results.Yes Honda will go that way too...So what? Doesnt mean carbies are no good. Cheers Len

Ooohhh don't go there with Linc Len he knows his "profanity removed" more than you think. And who need 70 bloody HP on an MX track anyway?
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Smitty

[ATV PRO]

cowchaser wrote:

Goodnbad wrote: Linc wrote: Goodnbad wrote: Another thing everyone seems to forget is that EFI is NOT a power adder. A properly tuned EFI system will not produce more power than a properly tuned carb system. Yeah but EFI shines everywhere up to WOT; part throttle responce and control with EFI shits on carby's. What will you say when Honda bring out EFI????? This Guy in the States you question Linc ,knows a heap about engines and knows that you can easily Tune an FCR Carby through the range and I now know you know very little about Injection or Carbs by your comment above .Are you a Qualified Mechanic?Or Efi Tech?or are you just opinionated? They are both metering devises and carefull jetting will give you equal results.Yes Honda will go that way too...So what? Doesnt mean carbies are no good. Cheers Len Ooohhh don't go there with Linc Len he knows his "profanity removed" more than you think. And who need 70 bloody HP on an MX track anyway?

Thanks smitty for the heads up, its just that by his comment,I wouldnt think so...who would use 70 Hp,Joe Bird and John Natali and racers of other disaplins like TT,Dirt Track and Super Motard...just trying to make a point the most powerfull Quads right now are running Carbies and Linc knows it ,because he frequents the same Web sites I do,thats why I cant understand his comment about Fuel injection?
Cheers Len
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Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[TRX FoFiddy]

yeah 70 hp would be a bit crzay but good
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[Linc]

Goodnbad wrote:

cowchaser wrote: Goodnbad wrote: Linc wrote: Goodnbad wrote: Another thing everyone seems to forget is that EFI is NOT a power adder. A properly tuned EFI system will not produce more power than a properly tuned carb system. Yeah but EFI shines everywhere up to WOT; part throttle responce and control with EFI shits on carby's. What will you say when Honda bring out EFI????? This Guy in the States you question Linc ,knows a heap about engines and knows that you can easily Tune an FCR Carby through the range and I now know you know very little about Injection or Carbs by your comment above .Are you a Qualified Mechanic?Or Efi Tech?or are you just opinionated? They are both metering devises and carefull jetting will give you equal results.Yes Honda will go that way too...So what? Doesnt mean carbies are no good. Cheers Len Ooohhh don't go there with Linc Len he knows his "profanity removed" more than you think. And who need 70 bloody HP on an MX track anyway? Thanks smitty for the heads up, its just that by his comment,I wouldnt think so...who would use 70 Hp,Joe Bird and John Natali and racers of other disaplins like TT,Dirt Track and Super Motard...just trying to make a point the most powerfull Quads right now are running Carbies and Linc knows it ,because he frequents the same Web sites I do,thats why I cant understand his comment about Fuel injection? Cheers Len

Com'on now mate I'm not having a go or even disagreeing; read what I said. No offence intended, you may have read more in to my statment than was said.

I never said anything about max hp....."part throttle responce and control"
was my statment and I stick by it.

You know as well as I do that an engine can only burn so much fuel/air mixture and is doesn't discriminate as to how that fuel is delivered. Carbie, fuel injection, midget with a fire hose.....it don't care; it will only burn what it can burn.

As stated you can "easily Tune an FCR Carby through the range" and get great power right through the rev's......no arguement; but this is at WOT.

Linc

[ATV PRO]

Linc wrote:

Goodnbad wrote: cowchaser wrote: Goodnbad wrote: Linc wrote: Goodnbad wrote: Another thing everyone seems to forget is that EFI is NOT a power adder. A properly tuned EFI system will not produce more power than a properly tuned carb system. Yeah but EFI shines everywhere up to WOT; part throttle responce and control with EFI shits on carby's. What will you say when Honda bring out EFI????? This Guy in the States you question Linc ,knows a heap about engines and knows that you can easily Tune an FCR Carby through the range and I now know you know very little about Injection or Carbs by your comment above .Are you a Qualified Mechanic?Or Efi Tech?or are you just opinionated? They are both metering devises and carefull jetting will give you equal results.Yes Honda will go that way too...So what? Doesnt mean carbies are no good. Cheers Len Ooohhh don't go there with Linc Len he knows his "profanity removed" more than you think. And who need 70 bloody HP on an MX track anyway? Thanks smitty for the heads up, its just that by his comment,I wouldnt think so...who would use 70 Hp,Joe Bird and John Natali and racers of other disaplins like TT,Dirt Track and Super Motard...just trying to make a point the most powerfull Quads right now are running Carbies and Linc knows it ,because he frequents the same Web sites I do,thats why I cant understand his comment about Fuel injection? Cheers Len Com'on now mate I'm not having a go or even disagreeing; read what I said. No offence intended, you may have read more in to my statment than was said. I never said anything about max hp....."part throttle responce and control" was my statment and I stick by it. You know as well as I do that an engine can only burn so much fuel/air mixture and is doesn't discriminate as to how that fuel is delivered. Carbie, fuel injection, midget with a fire hose.....it don't care; it will only burn what it can burn. As stated you can "easily Tune an FCR Carby through the range" and get great power right through the rev's......no arguement; but this is at WOT. Linc

Its all good Linc,Iam not offended at all ,sorry if I came on a bit strong ,I just like to put forward by my opinion ...Hope you are well
Cheers Len
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Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[matt]

I agree efi is "profanity removed" you can build a bigger engine with a carbi
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www.hardimanatv.com.au and the black 450

[PeteW]

Goodnbad wrote:

Thanks Pete,you are right ,we are not there yet and I agree we have a way to go yet before we can rave about EFI ...in Quads at the moment the fastest and best Production Motors in a single 450 4 stroke are Honda CRF /TRX built in the USA producing a phenominal 69.5 hp at the rear wheel and thats right its an FCR Carbie. Dan Lamey(Joe Bird),Dee Manchek (John Natali)and Ron Hamp (Founder of the great Web 208 921 camshaft) build these engines.There is not an EFI engine even close to these numbers right now,try 58hp on the same dyno by a zook ! I will keep my Honda with a Carby for now and a while to come! Cheers Len

I'm sure it wont be long before some A/M efi systems come online and give the opportunity for delivering more fuel. Dont forget that there has been a fair bit of development to get FCR's to give good feel as well as bulk fuel delivery and it will take time for the EFI to catch up. On the sort of engine we build for MX/XC racing here though I would rather have the EFI over an FCR for ridability but, looking for big HP for motard/dirt track then an FCR is always going to be an easier option. It will be interesting to see the development of EFI speed up as the other major brands bring thier systems out over the next couple of years.
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www.thumbpump.com
www.dirtcomp.com.au

[Roycroft]

Im with Smitty, give it 2 years and every 450 will be on EFI. even those red one's len.

cheers Roycroft

[ATV PRO]

yellowman wrote:

Im with Smitty, give it 2 years and every 450 will be on EFI. even those red one's len. cheers Roycroft

Hey Michael,Welcolm to the site ! M8 I agree that EFI will be out in all quads within a few years,my argument is ,does it make more Horspower or torque or response .... No .
BTW ,Congratulations to Joe Bird and Honda for winning GNC MX Titles 06 and hey all with a humble carby
Cheers Len

Note :When ya gunna boot camp me and max me out ? Im keen to give that old ticker of mine a hammering and get down the wieght down to 85 KG by the Nationals ! This little piggy wants to go to the market
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Cheers
Len

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