OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[triple"A"]

the width reduction made it too expensive for us to do speedway, that and the 450 pro class introduction.
we had just spent a fair bit of coin putting long travel shocks and corresponding A arms and the offset rims everyone else was running onto all the quads we had at the time to compete in mx and enduro events, so when we lowered them to get the centre of gravity down for speedway, we went wider than the stipulated maximum width. in the 2004 rule book the max width was 1400 and that's what we worked with, so when it was reduced it put us out. the only way we could get under the width was to swap all the suspension (front) back and forth from long travel to stock as we went from mx and endure to speedway and flat track. like everyone else we sold off most of our stock stuff to guys at Stockton and the like, to get back a bit of the cash we'd spent on aftermarket gear.

similarly, we could buy big bore and piston kits in 98mm for our yfz's a lot cheaper than stock genuine so went with that, again just before the rule change/introduction of 450 pro speedway class, so what happened in a nut shell, was the changes that were put through with great haste, terminated what we had put together over a couple of years.

perhaps we were the only ones unlucky enough to have wasted our money this way, but it has put a bitter taste in our mouths, and to avoid wasting more cash have opted to give the whole thing away. we just ride recreationally now and on private property outside MA and MSA control. it's more fun for us and less frustrating

I have , had and did voice my concerns at the time but as I said, perhaps we were the only ones affected so the changes went ahead anyway

junior rules?? well that's a whole different ball game and one thread on this forum is not enough to express my thoughts there

no doubt i'll get a few remarks from some wankers saying if ya cant afford it ya don't belong, and so be it. i'm just letting you know how the rule changes pushed us away from racing.

this happened to just one rider in the family, I had two more boys considering doing more racing but the precedent had already been set. we had no way of predicting what the current regime had in mind for future changes so rather than take a punt, we pulled the pin

[cammoquad]

i totally agree tripple a
we had 4 racing all disciplines (mx,enduro,speedway) but with the rule changes back then i was going to cost me more than my house to keep the riders competitive

i feel for all the juniors that were affected by the first set of rule changes just look at how many dropped out and there was alot of future senior riders some very talented riders

trail rideings much more fun goal posts dont keep getting changed
_________________
THANKS TO ALL WHO HAVE ASSISTED MY FAMILY IN THERE RACING OVER LAST FEW YEARS

[Dino]

Yeah, trails is where MA are not, and where most riders are.
Which absolutely sucks for juniors and anything like a sanctioned event.
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Bake]

Are you getting this bullet , I believe a rule should be put in place to leave the rules alone for a 3year minimum unless it's a safety issue.
How can anyone develope a class when you keep changing the rules?
more rules are put forward by the commission than ma members, maybe the commission should have a rest for a while and see if the sport of quad riding improves. It can't get any worse. (Just a thought)
_________________
'THANKS TO"
CRC,47Industries,C.B.S. bins , CBS TEMPORARY FENCING,
Austraco.com, Hustler atv,
Gillman speedway,
speedway riders association of s.a.

[bullet]

Bake wrote:

Are you getting this bullet , I believe a rule should be put in place to leave the rules alone for a 3year minimum unless it's a safety issue. How can anyone develope a class when you keep changing the rules? more rules are put forward by the commission than ma members, maybe the commission should have a rest for a while and see if the sport of quad riding improves. It can't get any worse. (Just a thought)

Some of the rules that changed this yeah have been requested by you guys 'the membership' for more than 5 years.

There are approximately 230 rules in section 18 ATV.
In 2014, there were only 3 rule changes for ATV's.

1. Junior classes were condensed from 6 to 4 classes.
2. 250 hybrid machnies were allowed into Juniors.
3. Less than 351cc 2 strokes and 451cc 4 strokes are allowed to enter the Speedway Open class (made the same as every other discipline).

Nearly every single rule change is put forward by members, (some come from the insurance side of MA).

I too, do not believe the sport can get any worse.
Globally I think it has passed it's all time low. American race teams are one tenth of the size they used to be and half of the big manufacturers that make ATVs have stopped making them.
But then August last year the biggest Junior ATV maker Yamaha, stopped making all Junior sport ATV... so maybe there is still worse to come.

For Finke last year Quads were down less than 10% and 2 wheelers were down more than 20%. So I guess ATV's are doing comparatively well.

What would be nice, is if the 3 or 4 people in this whole country that use this forum as a place to only bring up the negatives and dig for a fight...
actually got in and promoted there area of the sport with all the remaining positives. Instead of bitching about it, do something about it or at least be warm, friendly and inviting when in a public light.
Lets not constantly bring up all of the doom and gloom on a public forum, lets work on the positives and grow what we do in the framework we've got.
Yes I do always watch this forum. But if anyone would like to right a wrong, please just PM, or better still write to MA directly. Any member can do that as an individual. MA formally received 12 new rule change requests from members last year (and only 3 rules were altered).
MA can not do exactly what every individual wants, but everything is considered, so please write in and have your say if you have a good suggestion.

We can't do things like make Yamaha start making Junior ATV's again... but even in areas like that, we do contact manufacturers and importers and try.

I will not get in to a game of negativity and slander that only hurts the sport on a public forum, so please post thoughtfully.

I hope everyone has a good ride this year.
I've got my new 2014 X MX and I look forward to seeing you out there.

cheers

_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Dino]

Nothing wrong with using a public forum to voice dissatisfaction.
Even if that forum has withered like the various forms of quad competition.

Good idea for individuals to voice their satisfaction, or otherwise, direct to your employers. Falling membership isn't ringing too many bells.

I wouldn't bother sending me anymore PM's btw........

Playing with statistics does not change the fact that people are unhappy.
The statistics that matter are that numbers are down, in a big way.

Bullet, if you are feeling like you are getting looked at, it may be that you are the head of the quad commision for MA. ( by appointment, again.)
Scrutiny comes with that position.

And if people are unhappy, they will look for reasons.

I'll add that I won't be surprised at all, if some Caucasian Knight comes riding onto the scene with an alternative to MA in the future.

BTW, I wish you and Col Lawson al the best with your training venture.
EDIT. Please stop calling them ATV's. OHV is the with it term.

That isn't slander, or picking a fight. It's how things are.
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Bake]

1 Like I said most of the rules are put forward by the commission.
2 I'm not talking about 2014 I'm talking about since the commission was formed.
3 it's only 3 or 4 people that comment on here but a whole lot more disagree with the commission, it's unfortunate we have a quad commission,we don't have a solo or sidecar commission so why is it that quads need one.
As for the doom and gloom, well done, the commission do as they like without taking into account what is good for the sport. If you three guys are so good at your job why is our sport suffering?
Leave the rules alone for a while and let people get comfortable.
4 I'm happy to promote quad sport but seriously what is there to promote the commission have turned quad riders away with constantly changing rules and creating bad vibes in clubs because of it.
5 enjoy you ride on your 2014 bikes bullet, hope it's not to lonely for you.
6 Dino, spot on your comments deserve a like button.
_________________
'THANKS TO"
CRC,47Industries,C.B.S. bins , CBS TEMPORARY FENCING,
Austraco.com, Hustler atv,
Gillman speedway,
speedway riders association of s.a.

[bullet]

Of course I could just not play a response game on this thread. I usually don't because anyone who does try to explain themselves just gets ripped down. But I'll give it a go because I know there are a lot of other great Quad riding people out there who don't usually get to see a balanced discussion. Wish me luck...

Yeah the forum is way down on members. Nowhere near as many people view it as compared to the masses that used to several years ago.
I also look at the types of posts, whether they are positive or negative, and who is posting them.
It is just about always the same few people.
The Trike guys definitely seem to have it ticking along much more nicely.

In Quads, all the great technical tips and the posts with interesting new stuff from related businesses and aftermarket sellers have completely stopped.
There is virtually none of that any more.
People tried to positively put themselves and there products out there, but most of what they got was forum tough guy fights and negativity.
No one want's to be brought down, and if there is the slightest risk, they obviously choose to avoid it. The result is the negative forum tough guys win and no-one really bothers anymore, which is a great shame.

So while there is nothing wrong with using a public forum to voice dissatisfaction, it does seem to have a massive impact on who else posts, what they post and why.
So I guess, yeah I do think there is something wrong with that

Falling MA membership is obviously mostly 2 wheel motorcycles. Quads don't look too bad by comparison, which is quite remarkable when tracks around the country are getting closed down or not allowing Quads.
How can memberships grow when most manufacturers are pulling back and offering less Sport ATV's every year due to lack of demand on the global market.

Scrutiny of any governing or appointed position is always healthy. My position is only a minor advisory one, but still I invite any scrutiny that has a positive aim.
So while I personally don't care, I do have a greater concern for the sport if the same few people keep dragging their version of the same old negativity through the mud in any public environment.
I just wish those people could advertise proportionally more positivity, and I don't think that is too much to aspire to.
Like actually read the few hundred rules that Australian riders have made over the years, and pick just one they like and talk about that on a public forum. Maybe one of the actual rules that they know they were directly part of changing themselves.

Dino your post seems to be directed only at me/ about me/ to me but for some reason you think everyone else should know about it and you chose to put it in the public space. PM, ring or e-mail me anytime you like.

I too think that alternatives to MA will surely surface, and who knows when. But everyone I know who has tried usually turns back to MA.
It's getting hard for MA too. Massive legal changes like all volunteers and officials being classified as full employees has had extremely heavy cost and risk impact on what MA offer.

We pretty much have to call Quads ATVs. That's what the FCAI want them called, and MA are moving to improve their relationships with industry. ATV's are what every manufacturer in the world calls them. ATV is written all over your Quad and mine, and in the sales catalogue, and that's what the dealership sold us. They sell them as ATV's all over the world.
I reckon I can ride my Quad (my preferred slang) on All Terrain. Well I can't think of a terrain that I have not ridden on.

OHV means Overhead Valves. Most manufacturers use that term throughout when describing their engines. Nearly every modern car and motorcycle is OHV.

Col and I are off the training focus for the time being. We are all about fighting the politicians grandstanding through the media around "Quad Death Machines". As you know there are a lot of misrepresentations from the top, right down to the coroners reports. It threatens what we love and would like to positively promote.
It was the leading factor that MA postponed the 1000cc allowance, and it's just based on media driven public opinion (not Quad riders).

Dino I wish you better luck with Bunyip. I don't think you need it though, because I'm sure it will be a success.
Events like yours are a very important part of Australias the future for Quads.
Crossing the Simpson Desert on a Quad, who would not want to add that to the list. Awesome.
I hope everyone gets in an supports these sorts of trips and enjoys it.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[bullet]

Bake wrote:

1 Like I said most of the rules are put forward by the commission. 2 I'm not talking about 2014 I'm talking about since the commission was formed. 3 it's only 3 or 4 people that comment on here but a whole lot more disagree with the commission, it's unfortunate we have a quad commission,we don't have a solo or sidecar commission so why is it that quads need one. As for the doom and gloom, well done, the commission do as they like without taking into account what is good for the sport. If you three guys are so good at your job why is our sport suffering? Leave the rules alone for a while and let people get comfortable. 4 I'm happy to promote quad sport but seriously what is there to promote the commission have turned quad riders away with constantly changing rules and creating bad vibes in clubs because of it. 5 enjoy you ride on your 2014 bikes bullet, hope it's not to lonely for you. 6 Dino, spot on your comments deserve a like button.

Great work Bake.
You got in first with another post to take me down. I suppose I did write too much and take too long to post it.
I suppose I did not really think that I would beat the negativity.
How can I if you publicly back your lies with more lies.
I was wrong to try again. I feel bad about that.

I'll copy your post and forward it to your Boss, and you copy my post and send it to mine.
Then we can let MSA and MA work out who is acting in the best interests of our sport.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[jimmy14]

hey bullet.....U cant handle the truth....quote
_________________
yeah mate nah

[Bake]

Just make sure you copy it as it is bullet.
And please show all of this thread to your boss
As for lies mmmmm I don't think I have.
MA may understand our frustrations with constant rule changers.
Thanks .
_________________
'THANKS TO"
CRC,47Industries,C.B.S. bins , CBS TEMPORARY FENCING,
Austraco.com, Hustler atv,
Gillman speedway,
speedway riders association of s.a.

[Dino]

Getting a bit off track on this thread....

OHV, in this context, and when dealing with Govts, their authorities like the State Coroners and overseas interests, refers to:
Off Highway Vehicle.

They get confused with all the different terminology and agendas.
Side by side, buggy, UTV, 2 up, etc.
I still refer to my own ride as the quad or a quad bike, but collectively refer to them as OHV, as an abbreviation. It is easier.

ATV doesn't sit well with those that we have to deal with.
But hey, you please yourself. But if you use those things on the side of your head for listening, you'll soon find out what ticks their clocks.

As far as the few members of the FCAI, and the other importers are concerned, trending overseas factors and simple profit is behind their decisions. What you or I, or any "interested body", like MA, believes is hardly going to impact on a commercial decision.
Unless that decision it puts the importers in a very bad light.

And truth be told, our chosen recreation has copped a lot of negative press over recent years. The fact that it's headline driven and fuelled by agenda and the facts are not put in context, has not slipped my notice.

Nor my considerable efforts. Gratis.

Importers are not the only one responding to a changing landscape.
Vaste property holdings are getting forced off quads through insurance requirements. State authorities and local government have changed policy's regarding quads. It's not a good trend. A lot of damage has been done to the reputation of quad riding.


After 5 years dealing with the various Govts, vested interest bodies and the bureaucrats, about rego, access, safety and perceptions,
I offer you and Colin the following advice:

It is the bureaucrats and advising bodies whose support you need, the politicians are merely transient mouthpieces.
They pollies are in it for the vote, and regardless of who gets voted in next, it's those same advisors and bureaucrats that make the recommendations.


My posts were directed at MA, and it's various state branches.
My opinions are not lonely on that subject.

My response to your post was not a personal attack.
Handle it.
Negativity exists.
You might want to get a handle on that, too.

And yes, Bunyip is important to changing perceptions.
Most riders are trail riders. They want to ride, legitimately.
Current and Ex competitive quad riders are welcome
These MA noms do not cater for them, but Bunyip will.
https://www.facebook.com/BunyipRidingForAReason
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[bullet]

All good work Dino, and I don't disagree with your huge efforts at the top end.

Whenever someone dies on one of our favourite machines, the media usually slam it as a Quad. They have almost effectively associated the word that we use affectionately with death.
So not looking at the other political end (where I understand you are spot on the money) This thread is about MA, and if MA move to the term ATV, they not only connect with manufacturers, but also disassociate themselves in a small way with what the Media call Quads.

As mentioned the Board did not accept the 1000cc request, and recommendation with the deciding factor that they did not want to take a step that 'could' be seen as higher risk while the media are so actively ripping into 'Quads'.

We had another shark death today down here is SA. So everyone has forgotten about Quads and they are all off killing sharks.

So I don't mind the term ATV, and I hope it allows us to slip back in as safe fun friendly recreational machines.
We also need to detach from the negative Quad stigma to advance Junior Racing in NSW.
Sport and Rec ATV use is where MA will be coming from.
While Quad deaths on farms are an obvious issue (because it is so exaggerated) those farmers are not really doing what we are.
Helmets being a immediately obvious common difference.

Another huge political problem, is people buying their own properties to ride their Quads / ATV's. Good for us
EPA guidelines require new motorsport venues to have 3km buffer distances to sensitive receptors such as residential developments.
The fact is, you can legally ride your Quad on private land, and us Quad riding Tax paying voters are slowly buying more and more of our own land to continue what we love doing. Perfectly legal.
I've done it, and so have a dozen more people I know (2 wheelers as well).
This trend is not ideal for planning authorities right down to the local level, but unless they give Quads some sort of legal status... I guess it's going to keep happening, and they risk more and more neighbours complaining about each other.

Will the various levels of Government change before it's too late?
There will be more Quads, less organised events which offer good regulation, still illegal use everywhere, and community planning issues with one house in every block running a quad around there back yard on their own private MX tracks and giving their neighbours the irrits because there is nowhere else legal to ride.

Something has to break, and your concepts are a big part of the answer.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Dino]

Illegal use rocks!
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[jimmy14]

i would like to ask bullet in the nicest possible way cause there is so much media about quad safety at moment why u disallow quads that are wider than 1300mm? the wider the quad the more safer it is and that what i have been on about for more than 4 years. bring back the rule of up 2 1400mm
_________________
yeah mate nah

[Huskygoat]

I hear what U guys are saying ... I too will never forgive some people in the atv world.

BUT

Move on with the POSITIVES

AS a rider, 1400 U can ride a quad a certain speed until it tips sideways?

1300 is that speed just slower? equals closer racing? , More skill ?

MY experience making my quad wider just turned it into a pig. cost more $$$$ to setup?

Wouldn't it be good for U to be able to race at other interstate venues and guys travel to SA to race with U now 1300 is the standard Australia wide?

Some promotion on your part with your great sponsors could make quad speedway really big ... now the rest of Australia doesn't have to spend $10 000 to set the thing up to have a go... Surely that gets more people into the sport. No ones going to have a crack at a bitch fight? or one sided racing?

Linc had a Idea on 60/40 split ? is that against the rules?

NOW I don't agree with the new rule about putting a 250 in a 450 frame ... joke ... How manys everyday dads are going to do that? how is that going to get the masses back into racing? maybe a $50 air restrictor would have been my choice.

Speedway GUYS its time of opportunity for U to grab all those quad people out there looking for something different and cheap.

Lots of good positive things in the quad world. Even KTM are going to make quads again.

Cheers Huskygoat
_________________
Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[triple"A"]

Pretty sure dino was raferring to rider numbers at comp events being down rather than forum participants.but hey another twisted stat wont hurt hey? And as with dino I'd prefer not to get the pm's too. Thrash it out here where all can see the attempts at manipulation

[jimmy14]

just so u know husky, cost me a set of wheel spacers on the front, which i got second hand and a new axle on the rear which i needed cause it was a bit bent. its still got standard arms on the front, it doesnt cost much at all. but it doesnt say u have to race at 1400mm it means u can have ur setup up to 1400mm. some prefer wider some prefer narrow setups.
_________________
yeah mate nah

[muzzgit]

What crap. How could Bullet possibly be responsible for the sport of ATV riding going up, down, or sideways?

At least Bullet is doing something.

Bullet, I disagree with the 1300 rule though! Would MA consider revising this rule if enough members requested it?
_________________
Cheers,
MUZZ
06 YFM 700R mine
03 KFX 400 hers

[Linc]

muzzgit wrote:

Bullet, I disagree with the 1300 rule though! Would MA consider revising this rule if enough members requested it?

This is a major issue for Quad riders moving forward.......not 1300mm.....but the fact we change so much because we (umm....MA) stuffed up the rule change in the first place.

This happens time and time again.

In my most humblest of opinions I would like to see the Quad Commission plan any changes to the rules 2 years forward. It will solve many issues and foster a relationship between clubs, individuals and MA.

This year we should not be sending proposals for 2015; it should be for 2016.

This year we should be gearing up for the rule change for next year because we already know what those changes are.

[jimmy14]

it wasnt M.A who suggested the rule of 1300mm wide it was bullet. after trying to convince him to change it back for over 4 years now i put my arms in the air
_________________
yeah mate nah

[muzzgit]

I suggest you get together with your respective clubs and write to MA expressing your dislike of this rule and why it needs to be reversed. Maybe a vote of members is needed.

The only way to get ahead with an organisation like this is with diplomacy and patience.

If it appears they will not change through nothing other than stubbornness then go to the AGM and propose a vote of no confidence and sate WHY.
_________________
Cheers,
MUZZ
06 YFM 700R mine
03 KFX 400 hers

[bullet]

Muzzgit might have something there...
Maybe the small handful of guys on here that so violently object to a rule should not bring everybody else down on a public forum that leads to nothing,
Maybe they should formally handle the point with MA. Especially seeing as MA are the only ones who can actually make any difference.
Public slander, assumptions, accusations, one sided views, exaggerated opinions and the general promotion of negativity does absolutely no good for our sport.
Please write your 'facts' down and get them to the Board of MA.

But hang on a minute...
If we went through the rule book and tried to find maybe 5 people in all of Australia who are willing to object to each and every particular rule in the book, I bet we'd be successful!
I can think of dozens of people who object to different rules in just the ATV section alone.
MA would surely have to completely re-write the whole book and change every single rule.
And we would have to change every rule every year.
Does that sound like a good outcome?

And then what about the people who just hate 'rule change', they would in turn hate everybody who changed each rule. Everyone would hate everyone, and everyone would be happy that they got what they wanted.

If you have any real point to make, please represent it honestly and factually and send it to MA.
It 'will' be properly considered.

But please understand that 'your' idea might not get up. The Quad Commission had 37 pages of input to consider at last years meeting, and only recommended a handful of rule changes. Then the Board of MA only approved half of those, plus they make their own changes too.

At this point, I envisage that there will be very few recommendation made during this year... I stress "at this point". But that is up to YOU, and what you and every other member writes in.

thanks for bringing attention to the real process. I like to lift the awareness about this time of the year because the cut off date for 2015 suggestion is the 21st March 2014.

Go ride your Quad and have some fun
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Huskygoat]

Can U post a link online? or is this process manual post in the mail thing?

Husky
_________________
Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[bullet]

http://www.ma.org.au/index.php?id=1982
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.