OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[noodles]

You guys are getting too carried away with the rules, there will always be faster kids no matter what, the problem is not with the current classes it is with the parents that are racing there kids. some one will always win and some one will not win. what we need is more rider numbers not classes, if your kid likes riding their quad on an MX track your better off getting his or her mates involved at the same level then they can race each other. more classes will kill this sport why not try and fill grids first. there was only 15 or so 200 300's at the QLD nationals and the class was still split into boy/girls. The only reason they were split at the SA nats is because there was 25 entries and it was either that or run heats or something.
Fill grids first then work out what your gonna do coz you got too many riders. If you have 20 quads on a grid no matter what sort of bikes they are you will inevitably get 3,4 maybe even 5 groups of riders battling for there place within that small pack .Like i said some one will always not win if there close racing the kids wont care.

ps. this probably goes for all senior classes too.
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[scottydig]

At the nationals in the 200/300 class 2nd to 5th was reasonably close racing but the apex was half a track in front.
I would like to see 1st to 5th within a couple of bike lengths of each other.
The apex has set the bar ; now if you want to be competetive you must reach this height.
Either by buying and racing an apex or by building something that is equivalent.
The current models [raptor 250,trx300ex and blasters] are at their limits as far as modification goes.The nationals showed that.
As previous posts suggest ; maybe we should ask the kids who are racing in this class what they would like.........
My son finished 5th at the titles riding a 300ex and in his opinion he would love to ride an apex but unfortunately we don't have the money to throw into buying one.
However we could probably build a hybrid using a yz250f engine and most of the existing quad parts for probably a quarter of the price of an apex.
This would be more than competetive and it would make the racing a whole lot closer.

thanks scotty.
QQRA president/junior development
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[muzzgit]

Edited.......
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Last edited by muzzgit on Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total

[last minute racing]

I am pretty sure the apex 250 lapped a modified raptor 250 in every race at the nationals. Maybe the apex 250 needs to be in a hybrid class,as we all saw at coolum any kid riding riding this quad will clearly be 4-5 quad lenghts ahead by the first corner not to take anything away from #10 he is a very talented rider and probably would have won riding any quad
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[bullet]

scottydig wrote:

At the nationals in the 200/300 class 2nd to 5th was reasonably close racing but the apex was half a track in front. I would like to see 1st to 5th within a couple of bike lengths of each other. The apex has set the bar ; now if you want to be competetive you must reach this height. Either by buying and racing an apex or by building something that is equivalent. The current models [raptor 250,trx300ex and blasters] are at their limits as far as modification goes.The nationals showed that. As previous posts suggest ; maybe we should ask the kids who are racing in this class what they would like......... My son finished 5th at the titles riding a 300ex and in his opinion he would love to ride an apex but unfortunately we don't have the money to throw into buying one. However we could probably build a hybrid using a yz250f engine and most of the existing quad parts for probably a quarter of the price of an apex. This would be more than competetive and it would make the racing a whole lot closer. thanks scotty. QQRA president/junior development

You could be about 99% off the mark.
The Apex 250 did not win any race, or lap anyone at the Nationals...

An EXTREMELY talented Chris Bosnakis did!

Maybe he would only have thrashed everyone by 30 seconds or so if he was on a Blaster
Have a look at his lap times at the previous Nationals on 90cc machines.
Maybe he could have won the 200/300 class on a 90cc machine

Who would have won if the kid who came first and the kid who came last swapped bikes...
$10 says the order would not have changed at all...
And all the kids would have been just as happy

So clearly the new Apex has almost nothing to do with who wins on the day.
Other Parents would have been just as unhappy if their kid was beaten by a $30,000 Raptor 250
At least Mr Bosnakis saved $14,000 when he bought the Apex, and structurally, among many points, the Apex frame was designed to have arms that wide too.

Does anyone here honestly think Chris would not have won at the Nationals if he was on a Raptor or Blaster instead.

Yeah, the same goes for the Senior classes too... I reckon Ryan Lancaster could kick my but on a stock TRX400... but we are not going to ban TRX400's because they are too fast.
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[surfin]

What also needs to be considered is that the riders who are talented enough to handle one of these Apex's should be free to do so.

Chris Bosnakis has a very long career ahead of him, and for him to be as fast as he is now will only make him faster by the time he can legally ride a 450. He has the potential to be a very high ranked rider in the US, along with the fastest in Australia, but can you imagine how his career could be limited if we took a narrow minded approach and banned these sorts of quads.
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[NeKeleC]

I think you are all missing the point here!!!

NO ONE is trying to tale away the talants of young Chris on this dicussion HE IS a very talanted kid with a huge future in from of him.
And yes he could have still beatin everyone on a modded up blaster or Raptor no doubt!!

And NO ONE has mentioned banning the Apex at all!!

You are all getting off track, all that is being discussed is the idea of creating another class to allow parents to build bikes that will be competitive against the Apex on a budget (as we are not all rich) and to put modded bikes under the same class (all equal)

And to have a limited class so kids can come on stock (mass produced) bikes and have fun and be competitive against equal powered bikes just like what has been done in the 90cc & 110 classes

We have to move with the times and yes there will be small numbers at first but as parents and kids see they can come and have fun while being competitive our sport will hopefully grow in numbers

As Scotty said we all don't mind being beatin when it fair no one enjoys being humiliated.
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[surfin]

I've got an even better idea.

Instead of worrying about this class and that...lets just get some kids classes...that should be the first step...at least here in QLD no one wants quads and even less kids quads
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[noodles]

It's motorsport, if you want to win it can be expensive if you want to race it doesn't have to be.
There are already too many classes, not every one gets a trophy but if your out there you are already a winner
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[scottydig]

Another way may be to keep the 200/300 class as it is [hard to make current riders start taking parts off to make them oem/limited] and then to have a purpose built race machine [apex] / hybrid class where you have to do a competency test or 5hrs of coaching as the 2 wheelers [junior lite] do to be able qualify to race in this class.

The main thing is that the quad fraternity all come to a unified agreement so as to go to MA with a rule change preposal.

thanks scotty.
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[ozkwik]

guys i'll admit i'm new to quad racing seen but been in motorsport all my life. Been a president of a speedway promoting club for 6 years and iv'e seen everything you could think of with high cost of junior racing .stories of father's drilling carbie venturee's etc etc etc just to get a edge and the rich daddy sydrome goes on and on .
but reading this i think a lot are looking in the wrong direction..15 to 20 grand for a junior "what the " i think we all should be looking at getting quads mainstream and raising numbers first before going faster and more costly for a few
take sth east qld there isn't enough racing for juniors to warrant that sort of money .i'll admit i had a ball at nationals and met a heaps of great guys but spending that sort of money for amount of racing on offer i'd be off with my tail between my legs back to speedway ..with only 1 qld 7-10 3 qld 9-12 and not sure about higher classes let promote this fun sport before putting it out of reach

[NTRIDER30]

i agree that it is the skill of the rider and Chris is 14 yr

[Noy Q75]

Hello Guys . i am not going to comment about the bike but i will say i race at the same club as Chris. and all i can say is the way you guys have explaned on here how he is already gone in the 1st corner etc he is like that here on a club run on hes 2stroke blaster ? and yes by the 1st lap he is already 1/2 a track infront of second place. So yes his parents do have money to spend on the bikes but at the same time he knows how to ride them like a pro. so good luck to him
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[Linc]

I've read through all of this post and truely beleive all of the opinions are valid. Beleive it or not we have already had this debate a few years ago and
have come out the other side more educated.

About 4~5 years ago the QRCV wanted to introduce a "budget option" in regards to senior quad racing in both our and other series conducted in Oz. At the time racing
was dominated by ultra expensive and powerfull Raptors, Bom DS-650's and banshees with a few Honda 400EX's and the NEW Suzuki Ltz400. There was no 450 class; if it
had 4 wheels it was a quad so thats what class you raced in. Full spec racing quads were rare and far more expensive than they are now. By the time the class got off
the ground the YFZ450 and TRX450R had been introduced to the market but is was still expensive to make them wide, low and powerfull.

The theory was that and introductory class would be cheap(er) and therefor attract more entries and people to the sport. After a few months debate between myself, PeteW
Huey (QRCV president) and a few other board members we came up with some basic guidelines and introduced it as the "Production class".

I have come to beleive it was a bad move.

The "Production Class" seemed a good idea at the time but then the LTR450 hit the market; wide and low with good shocks and small MX style wheels and tyres. It was the perfect production class quad. Suddenly the "cheap option" wasn't so cheap any more.

If you wanted to win "Production Class" you had to spend $14k on a
new Suzuli LTR450. If you didn't you wern't in the hunt. "Production Class" went from being the cheap option to PRO Class with slightly different rules.

The market changed the dynamics of our racing classes by introducing quads that were suitable for racing off the shelf.

I've had this out with (sausage) Johnson (FORD Legend V8 dood) and I will never forget it as he had a list of examples in mororsport where this has been attempted and failed. DJ stated that attempting to control costs in motorsport is a futile persuit. He said "People will spend as much as they have no matter what the rules are".

If we allow Hybrid quads there will still be a guy who spends more on the engine/chassis/suspension than anyone else. It's a fact of life.

If new rules or classes are developed as a reaction to the APEX then all we will acheive is spliting junior racing in 2 and Chris will go home next year with 2 trophies instead of 1.

IF......Thats a big "IF" the APEX is available to everyone, not just a select few or as a "pre-production" quad then the rules are even and from there on in just enjoy your racing.

[bosnakis]

Last edited by bosnakis on Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:23 am; edited 1 time in total

[bosnakis]

.

Last edited by bosnakis on Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total

[mitch41]

I think we should all put the question of Chris aside, this arguement is about the apex and it just so happens that Chris rides one. No matter what he rides he will be a mile ahead anyway.

I would like to see MA allow hybrids in the 250 class as I find it ridiculous at how small the raptor 250 frame is as I am over 6 foot tall, and I am not the only one out there with this problem. It is physically challenging to ride a bike that is way too small. I heard that MA changed their rules and would have allowed a 450 frame, and then a week later they were changed back

[scottydig]

Hi Kim,
That sounds like a good idea for the states with a large no. of juniors ,but it definately wouldn't work in Qld as we only have 5-6 riders in the 200/300 class.
Maybe just an A & B class .

Healthy discussion is what resolves issues and well done to everyone who is posting on this topic .

thanks scotty
QQRA pres./junior development
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[noodles]

scottydig wrote:

Hi Kim, That sounds like a good idea for the states with a large no. of juniors ,but it definately wouldn't work in Qld as we only have 5-6 riders in the 200/300 class. Maybe just an A & B class . Healthy discussion is what resolves issues and well done to everyone who is posting on this topic . thanks scotty QQRA pres./junior development

Are you serious you only have 5-6 riders and you want to split the class, why don't you save your entry fee money and just buy every kid a trophy.
There is nothing at all wrong with the current rules and absolutely no need to create more classes until you need too because of too many entries after all it is racing.
Your main point seems to be you want to get more people riding and cheaper. why don't you work with the current framework of MA and run a non comp class that way you encourage kids to get into motocross in a much more budget friendly manner. it costs not much more (in SA its $30) for a rec permit to be attached to the competitive permit, the riders only have to buy a $20 rec license if they don't have an annual one, make it maybe $10 to enter to cover your rider levy, pretty sure you wouldn't need any kick start coaching unless it is competitive racing (I could possibly be wrong on that please correct me if i am).
Suddenly you've got a new class with inherent skill level built into it and you haven't had to create any new rules. All that is required is for it not to have a gate start (start it with a flag) no scoring or timing and not a chequered flag finish then its all legal.
Leave the racing to to the racers and stop trying to fix something that's not broken.
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[scottydig]

My main purpose is to create a level playing field to give people the option to build a bike that can compete with an apex at an affordable price.
Most of the 5-6 riders rode at the nationals and were all on 300cc raptors /trx 300ex and were left eating dust like the rest of the field.
It's like taking a field of stock falcons and commodores to bathurst and having a touring car in the mix.
There are plenty of cheap 450's around the $4000 mark.
yz250f engines are $2000 new [so I've been told].
The rest from the wreckers or ebay.
There are posts on web sites on how to do the engine mounts.
Most reckon done in a day; start to finish.
So for $7000 -$8000 you have a kickass quad for junior comp.
You also have a 450cc engine that can go back in once they go senior.
That's half the price of an apex.

The biggest problem is that some are justing getting to big to ride a raptor.Some only have 12 months left in the 200/300 class.

The parents don't want to spend a heap of money to up grade to an apex
The kids are disheartened because they know they have no chance of winning unless they upgrade.
Some are selling now while their quads are still worth something and contemplating taking time off until they turn 16.

Great !!!!! Now we will have people leaving the sport.

I'm all for leaving 200/300 class as it is ,but the apex has moved the goal posts.

The older Juniors want to go faster and to be able to be competetive.

This is the reason for 2 classes!!!!!

These kids are not novices.They can hold their own but alot more ponies
under the thumb would make for much better racing.

thanks scotty.
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[4stroker]

quad racing is inherently expensive, you will never change that
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[mitch41]

scottydig wrote:

My main purpose is to create a level playing field to give people the option to build a bike that can compete with an apex at an affordable price. Most of the 5-6 riders rode at the nationals and were all on 300cc raptors /trx 300ex and were left eating dust like the rest of the field. It's like taking a field of stock falcons and commodores to bathurst and having a touring car in the mix. There are plenty of cheap 450's around the $4000 mark. yz250f engines are $2000 new [so I've been told]. The rest from the wreckers or ebay. There are posts on web sites on how to do the engine mounts. Most reckon done in a day; start to finish. So for $7000 -$8000 you have a kickass quad for junior comp. You also have a 450cc engine that can go back in once they go senior. That's half the price of an apex. The biggest problem is that some are justing getting to big to ride a raptor.Some only have 12 months left in the 200/300 class. The parents don't want to spend a heap of money to up grade to an apex The kids are disheartened because they know they have no chance of winning unless they upgrade. Some are selling now while their quads are still worth something and contemplating taking time off until they turn 16. Great !!!!! Now we will have people leaving the sport. I'm all for leaving 200/300 class as it is ,but the apex has moved the goal posts. The older Juniors want to go faster and to be able to be competetive. This is the reason for 2 classes!!!!! These kids are not novices.They can hold their own but alot more ponies under the thumb would make for much better racing. thanks scotty.

Couldn't have said it better, this is the exact situation here in Queensland right now, probably is in other states aswell.

[Linc]

scottydig wrote:

My main purpose is to create a level playing field to give people the option to build a bike that can compete with an apex at an affordable price. Most of the 5-6 riders rode at the nationals and were all on 300cc raptors /trx 300ex and were left eating dust like the rest of the field. It's like taking a field of stock falcons and commodores to bathurst and having a touring car in the mix. There are plenty of cheap 450's around the $4000 mark. yz250f engines are $2000 new [so I've been told]. The rest from the wreckers or ebay. There are posts on web sites on how to do the engine mounts. Most reckon done in a day; start to finish. So for $7000 -$8000 you have a kickass quad for junior comp. You also have a 450cc engine that can go back in once they go senior. That's half the price of an apex. The biggest problem is that some are justing getting to big to ride a raptor.Some only have 12 months left in the 200/300 class. The parents don't want to spend a heap of money to up grade to an apex The kids are disheartened because they know they have no chance of winning unless they upgrade. Some are selling now while their quads are still worth something and contemplating taking time off until they turn 16. Great !!!!! Now we will have people leaving the sport. I'm all for leaving 200/300 class as it is ,but the apex has moved the goal posts. The older Juniors want to go faster and to be able to be competetive. This is the reason for 2 classes!!!!! These kids are not novices.They can hold their own but alot more ponies under the thumb would make for much better racing. thanks scotty.

..........your suggestion above is a recipe for the most expensive class in all of quad racing. Read my post again.

It doesn't matter that you "could" make a cheap 250MX Hybrid. What does matter is that one day someone will turn up with a brand new full custom MX quad and then chuck the 450 engine and buy a brand new 250 MX engine drop it in and chuck a heap of money at the engine because the chassis is so heavy then buy a heap of Ti parts because they want to make it as light as possible and turn up to the Nats and start all this "cheque book racing" crap once again.

And one more thing.......making a worked 250 MX engine is more expensive than a 450.

I understand your passion and commitment but you are a country mile off if you think you are the first guy to attempt to create a level playing field in quad racing. What you are saying is nothing new; it has been attempted.......it won't work.

Linc

[mitch41]

The Apex is technically a hybrid anyway, its just sold on a production line. Allowing others to build their own hybrid would have its flaws, but it would allow everyone else to compete at a relatively closer level

[Linc]

Linc wrote:

IF......Thats a big "IF" the APEX is available to everyone, not just a select few or as a "pre-production" quad then the rules are even and from there on in just enjoy your racing.

Mitch

It sounds like you have a issue with APEX not the rules. What if the big 4 released a 250MX based quad themselves? where would we be then? the market will sort things out, the rules are fine.

I hope APEX sell a million of the things because then the big 4 will react and release one too.

Linc