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[ddingo]

Well we saw one at the Nationals.
What does everyone think?
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[Todd 127]

I think my kids raptor is now worth 1000 bucks.

I think the rule needs to be changed to run a 250cc in any 450 chasis , there's absolutely no difference to one of those apexs. Otherwise we will all now have to buy a apex.

[scottydig]

WELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The apex 250f is definately the future of the sport.
At the recent aussie MX titles everyone was blown away by the speed and power of this machine.
Full marks to chris on his faultless ride.
This is a wake up call to the quad community,maufacturers and MA.
His best time would have put him in 3rd place in the pro-class on times.Amazing for a 13 year old !!
In the UK and US they have a class that allows the use of aftermarket commercially available frames that are constructed with engine mounts to suit 250f .
As Todd has posted unless there is a rule change then we will be back to same stage as the 90/110 cc was before the limited/ comp classes were introduced.If you were't on a pro-shark or cobra your chance of winning was slim at best.
To see the 2 junior riders at the nationals on their stock 90's was great.This will build our sport and give new riders a chance to ride /race against other novice riders to develop their racing skills before entering the 90/125cc comp. class.
In the 200/300 class the "need for speed" is alive and kicking.
We could maybe have a stock/limited class and a comp./hybrid class who could race together but a scored seperately.[ depending on riders].
I believe that resleeving or modifing a 450 engine to suit the class leaves too much room for indescepency.
However replacing /swapping in a modern 250f engine into a commercially available frame [laeger etc]or a current 450cc bike is our best option.
This would create a "junior lite" class for quads or otherwise we will have to spend $15-20 k to buy a apex250f.
Raptor 250's,trx300ex's and blasters are old technology.At the nationals these quads had had a bucket load of money thrown at them to make them as competitive as possible,but they were left a gasp watching the apex leave them in its dust.
Between 1st and 2nd place the difference was 6-10 secs/lap.
One brand of bike having a monopoly over a class is not condusive to furthering the sport.
Allowing 250f engines in 450cc or aftermarket frames would allow for the 450cc motor to be either sold off or put on the shelf to be re-used once they enter the senior ranks.
Amending the rules should be a top priority for the new quad commisiomers and MA so as to allow for a level playnig in the 200/300 class.
If this issue is ignored then we will loose our 200/300 racers who can't afford to buy an apex.
" Everyone likes to win; no one likes to be humiliated.

thanks scotty

pres QQRA
junior development officer QQRA
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Last edited by scottydig on Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:48 am; edited 2 times in total

[NeKeleC]

Very well put Scotty!!!!

I/ we all know of a number of young boys coming along in the 200/300 class that are not only after more speed (governed by mum and dad's wallet) but are also getting too tall for the frame on the raptor/blaster bike's.
The ability to ride on a 450 size frame running a 250 motor would not only help the kids out but the parents too, with as Scotty mentioned being able to buy suspension, plastics, graphics, wheels etc only once as then they would be able to put the 450 motor back into the bike when the kid goes senior.
Providing a rule change to allow this type of class would not only encourage the juniors (the future of the sport) it will also help move the future of quad racing forward not backwards as it is starting to look like going.

Neil Collett

QQRA Vice-Pres
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The main thing is to have fun I just think second place is no fun

Me - 09 Quadracer 450R No 339
Mrs -09 Quadracer 450R No K77

[kingquad]

Screw throwing big $$$$$ at quads just for junior events.
All the bikes should be restricted to intake and exhaust mods.

If a junior wants to run a 450 framed bike make a junior 450 class.

This is the reason my kids don't race quads. I simply cannot afford to throw $$$$$$ into a quad.
I can buy a stock KX65 and my young bloke is competitive.
I buy a stock blaster and he wouldn't have a hope in hell.

[NeKeleC]

Hey Kingquad I think you will find that if you put your kid on a stock KX65 he will be competitive against other kids on stock 65's but how many kids are runnin "stock 65's" i bet not many!!!

The only diffenence is that there is heaps of kids ridin bikes and not many ridin quads. As mentioned we are trying to get Limited (stock bikes) and comp/hybrid (modified bikes) classes together so that where parents want their kids riding stock bikes, the kids have fun racing against bikes of equal power/performance.

As for your statement about making a 450 kids class would you put a 13 year old on a 450 bike to race (besides the fact they don't allow it)??? pretty silly statement really!!!

As for throwing Dollars at a quad to race if we get a junior limited class you could then put your kid on a blaster and he could be competitive against equal bikes in the class!!

Or you could buy a second hand 450 pull the motor out get a wrecked 250f dirt bike get the motor fixed up mounted in the 450 frame and be competitive in the junior comp/hybrid class for around $12,000.
Now $12,000 you say too much well consider the future of juniors right now to be competitive you need to look at an Apex at $16,000 landed in Australia then the costs to upgrade the engine to a 290cc and anything else to get it up to speed before you know it you looking at $20,000+.

So by splitting the classes people like yourself will consider bringing their kids back to the sport, and parents who have kids that are being competitive (but can't justify the costs of an Apex) will be able to save some cash by building a bike at a reduced cost thus keeping their kids and themselves interested and in the sport.

All this can only help grow our sport for the future as juniors are the future of the sport!!!

Neil
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The main thing is to have fun I just think second place is no fun

Me - 09 Quadracer 450R No 339
Mrs -09 Quadracer 450R No K77

[PeteW]

I think that it should be pointed out in any argument about how much it costs to build junior bikes that when the Apex 250's are officially released here they will be way less than $16K....
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[NeKeleC]

PeteW is that an inside source confirmation are you sure this is the case and how long till they are being "released" here?

And yea ok it costs around $20,000 to build a 250 raptor from the ground up to be competitive against other raptor 250's. but that is now a waste of money as you can buy a faster ready to race apex for around the same money.

But you missing the point the point is to reduce the costs for parents, if they release the Apex here for 10 to $12,000 then it still might be better for parents to build a hybrid as they can then revert it back to a 450 later, something you can't do with a Apex.

Neil
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The main thing is to have fun I just think second place is no fun

Me - 09 Quadracer 450R No 339
Mrs -09 Quadracer 450R No K77

[Roycroft]

Im with you kingquad,
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[Roycroft]

Who is the importer into australia for the apex 250f?
I agree its the future, what aweapon,
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[kingquad]

So let me get this straight.
There will be a rich mummy and daddy class and an ordinary class.

There should be just a limited class.
Everybody having even powered bikes would encourage aggressive racing and increase the skill level of younger riders, Everybody loves racing when its close.

The way the rules are set up sucks. It is just to expensive to race a quad.

My boy races a kx65 and it only cost me $3600 and I haven't spent a dime on the bike.
He has a ball, the racing is close and he is still getting faster.

A smarter thing to do would be to have a junior 450cc class.
The bikes would be stock and fit an adjustable throttle that would be limited to say 8000rpm or lower.
That would make affordable racing for every body.
If I could do that my 15yo daughter would be racing ASAP.

[NeKeleC]

Kingquad
What do you mean "there will be" a rich mummy and daddy class and an ordinary class it is already this way now!! you said it yourself you need to spend huge amounts of dollars to be competitive.
All we wish to happen is to split the "rich and ordinary" (as you have put it) so the kids who's parents want them to ride stock bikes can have fun and be competitive against kids equal to them just like as you have said your kid does now in the 65 bike class.
You say it's just too expensive to race quads well if the rules changed so we had a limited class and hybrid class your kids could race quads on a budget, against other kids on a budget just like we did this year at our nationals with the 90 class.
Why is it you wish to spoil the fast kids racing just so your kid can race against kids who will probably be faster on stock bikes anyway??
And how is putting your 15 yr old daughter on a 450cc 200kg quad a smarter option than being able to put her on a 250 120kg stock quad racing against other 250 stock quads???
How will we keep tabs on the parents who "adjust" the throttle control on these resticted 450's???? Or the parents who will still spend the money to get the 450 to make masive amounts of power in the bottom of the rev range to "bypass" the 8000rpm (or less) setting.
It doesn't matter how you look at it the issue is kids who get better want to go faster and there are parents out there who are willing (rich or not) to spend the money to let there kids be competitive and we need to provide for this.

And hey Roycroft what are you talking about you did nothing but throw money at quad racing i'm sure when your kids grow up and want to be as fast as dad you will happily be spending the cash then too!!! lol

Neil
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The main thing is to have fun I just think second place is no fun

Me - 09 Quadracer 450R No 339
Mrs -09 Quadracer 450R No K77

[bullet]

People need to write to MA with ideas on this topic.

Maybe 2 people in the entire country wrote anything about the stuff mentioned above last year, so clearly...
either the rules must be damn near perfect... or no-one involved in racing (or who wants to race) really cares enough to even mention otherwise.

There is nothing wrong with the way we have been racing in the past, but times change, and we have to try to keep up. Which way do you think MA should go? Write in
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[scottydig]

Bullet is correct !!
Times are not just changing;they have CHANGED.
Who would be the best person at MA to address our concerns to ????

The best way to describe 200/300 junior racing at the moment is to use a 2 wheel analagy ;that everyone have been riding ttr250 trail bikes [which has been fair] but all of a sudden so one has turned up on a yz250f and has smoked everyone.
Some may be happy to stay on the ttr [standard/limited class] but others want a crack at a yz250f without having to sell the family car and their first born !!!
Making it some what affordable and encouraging new riders to our sport is what it should be about.

thanks scotty.
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[kpracing12]

I know this is off topic but the same principals apply.
I raced sport class jetskis for 10 years and the same thing happened.
I started on a Kawasaki X2 limited, modded the engine and hull for the mod class and then it happened.
Kawasaki had a monopoly on jetski racing at the time and the other manufacturers could'nt race their skis.
Formula Marine in Sydney started a series (APWA) that you could race all brands including Kawasaki.
This led to the governing race body (AJSBA) to review the rules and open in uo to all brands.
Along came the Yamaha waveblaster and dominated the sport class. I held on to the Kawi till the end and finally moved on to a Waveblaster.
Then Seadoo threw the HX into the mix and sometimes if the conditions were right you could beat them on a Blaster. Polaris bought out the Hurricane and Yamaha again responded with the Waveblaster 800. Approx3.5m long with 120hp under the hood.
My point is you don't have to be "rich" to be competitive. Its just a matter of what you spend your money on and how bad your kids want to win or just have fun riding. Sacrifices are made to enable us to do this.
I get more pleasure watching both my boys riding or racing than riding myself.
Chad Reed started out of a Toyota Hiace.
Think about all the riders up against Factory teams on 2 wheelers. What if the manufacturers race teams start racing quads. Do we all give up?
Wait for someone else to fully mod an apex and then buy it 2nd hand.
I wish they were around a few years ago. I would probably ride one.
Its the sport moving foward which is great.
Well done Chris at the Nationals.

[surfin]

Even if you tried to have a 'stock' class that will have problems.

Most might think they'd go with stock Raptor 250's for example, as they are cheap.

Someone could still lob up with a stock Apex 250 and eat everyone else. He's still on a stock out of the box quad and fits the rules.
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[NeKeleC]

You are very right there Craig but the people who do this will be classed as trophy hunters and will be shunned from all around them!!!!!

I think the Apex could be classed as a race ready limited run production quad. And all the others could be classed as mass production quads.

No easy fix i know but we have to start moving forward at least to cater for these quad classes

Neil
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The main thing is to have fun I just think second place is no fun

Me - 09 Quadracer 450R No 339
Mrs -09 Quadracer 450R No K77

[kingquad]

surfin wrote:

Even if you tried to have a 'stock' class that will have problems. Most might think they'd go with stock Raptor 250's for example, as they are cheap. Someone could still lob up with a stock Apex 250 and eat everyone else. He's still on a stock out of the box quad and fits the rules.

The apex is not a stock quad it is all after market.
It states on their website that it is made from all high performance parts.
The frame is a lonestar chrome molly frame and everything else except the motor is after market.
It is far from what most people would call a stock machine.

The rules need to be changed to make quad racing more affordable.

The difference in weight between the raptor 250 and a yfz is around 28kg.
The difference in seat hight is not quite 3 inches.
I don't think that is a really big difference.

As for parents building a bike to make power in the low RPM range if the rules were that a stock motor had to be used this would fix that problem.

The RPM limiting could simply be a throttle stop screw.
This could easily be policed with an electronic tachometer used before each race.
Another plus would be that they would have a machine that can be used for years with minimal $$$$$ needed to keep them racing.

[NeKeleC]

This just shows how far out of touch with it all that you are Kingquad!!

The Aex is a stock standard production bike made by a company under a limited volume production ruling. The bike is made by a company in the US to a design submitted for production laws.
So as it stands it meets our outdated rule system for quads to be run as a production OEM bike. Even though the bike is made pretty much entirely of aftermarket products.

And as for your statement about kids running on 450's why then did you buy your kid a 65 why didn't you buy him a 85 big wheel and restict the throttle on it??? it would have saved you a packet over the years having to upgrade through the classes!!!!
Oh thats right cause there are classes and volume restictions for kids at certain ages for safety reasons!!!
Get off the kids on 450's idea as it's just plain dangerous & stupid!!
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The main thing is to have fun I just think second place is no fun

Me - 09 Quadracer 450R No 339
Mrs -09 Quadracer 450R No K77

[kingquad]

kingquad wrote:

surfin wrote: Even if you tried to have a 'stock' class that will have problems. Most might think they'd go with stock Raptor 250's for example, as they are cheap. Someone could still lob up with a stock Apex 250 and eat everyone else. He's still on a stock out of the box quad and fits the rules. The apex is not a stock quad it is all after market. It states on their website that it is made from all high performance parts. The frame is a lonestar chrome molly frame and everything else except the motor is after market. It is far from what most people would call a stock machine. The rules need to be changed to make quad racing more affordable. The difference in weight between the raptor 250 and a yfz is around 28kg. The difference in seat hight is not quite 3 inches. I don't think that is a really big difference. As for parents building a bike to make power in the low RPM range if the rules were that a stock motor had to be used this would fix that problem. The RPM limiting could simply be a throttle stop screw. This could easily be policed with an electronic tachometer used before each race. Another plus would be that they would have a machine that can be used for years with minimal $$$$$ needed to keep them racing.

I will just underline that part for you.

I know what the apex is and yes you are right it does fit under an out dated OEM law.

I bought my boy a KX65 because it is a great bike that he is having fun with and he doesn't get flogged each time he races.
It didn't cost me $20k to get him racing.

I was just saying there needs to be a rule change so everybody can afford to race on a level playing field.
This would bring many more people to quad racing and make it better for everybody.

Whats the difference with limiting a 450cc motor and having juniors racing a 250cc in a 450cc frame? Not much.

[NeKeleC]

I'm opting out of this conversation as you are just going around in circles most of us are just trying to create a stock standard class "limited class" so that it brings kids and parents like yourself back to racing and have a comp class so it keeps the kids we already have in it.

But you want to limit everyone so it fits what "you" want and push alot of kids who are above the level of "stock" out of the sport.

With two classes it will provide a class for what "you" want and a class for what a lot of other people want as well.
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The main thing is to have fun I just think second place is no fun

Me - 09 Quadracer 450R No 339
Mrs -09 Quadracer 450R No K77

[bullet]

scottydig wrote:

Bullet is correct !! Times are not just changing;they have CHANGED. Who would be the best person at MA to address our concerns to ???? The best way to describe 200/300 junior racing at the moment is to use a 2 wheel analagy ;that everyone have been riding ttr250 trail bikes [which has been fair] but all of a sudden so one has turned up on a yz250f and has smoked everyone. Some may be happy to stay on the ttr [standard/limited class] but others want a crack at a yz250f without having to sell the family car and their first born !!! Making it some what affordable and encouraging new riders to our sport is what it should be about. thanks scotty.

Write to Ross Martin (Communications Manager).

Also remember that most 250cc machines are taller, skinnier and much heavier than most 450cc machines.
Some 250's are around 190kg.
Also how many classes around this capacity can our sport handle. A girls class has recently been added already.
If we split off a limited and comp class in this displacement... Club rounds might only have 1 or 2 kids in each class.
That way no-one can even come 3rd.

This will need a lot of thought, and where ever the line is drawn... there will be unhappy people either side.
Funny thing is, it usually not the kids
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[Roycroft]

I am for close, cheap and fair junior racing, how that is achieved i dont know. I hardly think allowing parents to modify 450cc quads to fit within the age capicity limits is the way to go.
To build a hybrid quad is too exspensive and mostly unreliable and unsafe concept.
I have seen many hybrids and ridden a few and i would hate to race one.
I wouldnt call the apex a hybrid its a production race ready quad and it has its place on the race track, to have a quad like the 250f out of the box race ready is great for the sport and its about time orhers followed.

I would love to have one in my garage not for my boy but for me.

I have a class request senior 250 class? All on apex 250f i would sign up
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[Clarkie]

Roycroft wrote:

I have a class request senior 250 class? All on apex 250f i would sign up

Id be in that also, 250's are awsome fun, comes down to the rider more than pure power which would still put me last
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[SIKMIC]

Is it really fair to compare a standard KX65 to the quads getting used at the Nationals
How many standard 65's, 85's or any capacity bikes get around at the Junior Bike Nationals?
Has anyone asked the kids what they think about this? Sometimes it seems parents (not all parents, but some) are getting more carried away with the competition side of it than the kids who are actualy out having a go.
When I was a 13 to 15 year old on my standard Yamaha Warrior I was just Happy to be riding.
Maybe the Juniors now are the same... Just happy to be out there, waiting a few years to turn senior where we have Clubman class for them to start from and work there way up.
Its a developing sport. If we spread the numbers to thin we will have very limited numbers in each class.
If parents out there have that amount of money and are willing to throw it at the kids racing then good on them.
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