OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[PeteW]

TODD 450 wrote:

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY.........i have a 502cc yfz, only to make up for what i lack in ability, but 450cc class......great news. As for polaris riders well you can detune it as i NSW rider is in the process of putting in a 440 kit, he rather race this class than compete againts 100HP banshees. Next race i'll be there with a true 450cc quad ! ( might just learn to ride faster)

So you can afford to buy a new quad to do it with, what about guys who have already invested in 500cc kits and are set up for them, pretty much makes a whole emgine worthless (not really the right thing to turn into a trail bike). This effect quite a few people including the engine builders who wil now have t oput up with a whole heap of people complaining about not being able to use thier 500 engines.

The point I'm really making is that there was no Warning that this change was going to happen and also no consultation with the NQAC whe it directly effects our classes.

I wouldn't have so much of an issue with it if it was handled properly. Look at Moto-GP, they knew all season last year that this year they would have 800cc bikes, time to do some development, sort out how it's gonna work, not just say at the start of the year, ohh your capacity limit has changed, go build new motors.
_________________


www.thumbpump.com
www.dirtcomp.com.au

[Mrs_Gaitar]

but theres 2 classes... open... and 450cc
remembering back to the begining of 2006, I think Derek was doing something with Dirt Track....

also since its almost April and theres about 6 weeks left to sort changes for 2008 rule book, including fixing 2007 GCR's, I think the NQAC has lots to do??
I think heading down the path were the quad section is for "What is a quad" and all the rules for disciplines are under the correct disciplines, with rules to comply for eg Motocross, are to cover all riders.
ie if one rider senior or junior has to wear armour and number on their back, everyone has to, same with spine protectors, good for one, good for all 2 and 4 wheels.
_________________
www.waquadmx.com

[Todd 127]

PeteW wrote:

TODD 450 wrote: MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY.........i have a 502cc yfz, only to make up for what i lack in ability, but 450cc class......great news. As for polaris riders well you can detune it as i NSW rider is in the process of putting in a 440 kit, he rather race this class than compete againts 100HP banshees. Next race i'll be there with a true 450cc quad ! ( might just learn to ride faster) So you can afford to buy a new quad to do it with, what about guys who have already invested in 500cc kits and are set up for them, pretty much makes a whole emgine worthless (not really the right thing to turn into a trail bike). This effect quite a few people including the engine builders who wil now have t oput up with a whole heap of people complaining about not being able to use thier 500 engines. The point I'm really making is that there was no Warning that this change was going to happen and also no consultation with the NQAC whe it directly effects our classes. I wouldn't have so much of an issue with it if it was handled properly. Look at Moto-GP, they knew all season last year that this year they would have 800cc bikes, time to do some development, sort out how it's gonna work, not just say at the start of the year, ohh your capacity limit has changed, go build new motors.

Yes it definitly was'nt handled too good, as i know a few riders that are in the process of building new engines that maybe wouldnt have gone down that road if they only had some notice, so i do feel sorry for these guys spending big bucks for now a class they cant race in. Regardless of the idea is good or bad for our sport, it would of been nice to get a notice allowing a certain amount of time to comply.

[Mrs_Gaitar]

There has to be a certain amount of riders to constitute a class, and if the class has more "open" riders and 3or4 450cc then the class on the day would be Open.
My background is MX how many riders are we talking in dirt track
ie how many race 450cc and how many over 450cc?
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www.waquadmx.com

[Q67Dazza]

Would think that they would probably race together and get scored separately.
Then heaven forbid if the stroker kit was beatin by a 4fiddy or even a 439cc..

The changes in the 2007 book are in bold

We have an opportunity if our NQAC members would be so bold to discuss, debate, argue, rationale,,, potential changes to the 2008 book as we speak,er type
Then potentially it could be handled better {your dreaming you idealist}
Whats’s on the table
What do we want to see changes
How do we want the sport to grow
What’s in the best interest of rider safety
.
We’ve briefly mentioned the 125cc junior capacity thingo,,, what’s the positives & negatives
What else????.
.
.
And Mic47Ind the nipper comment followed by the laughing emicon was tongue and cheek
Go the nippers
They’re the future

5 seconds

_________________
007257 where are you???.... bring back the Bling

[HoleshotQR#24]

Almost each state has a Rep on the NQAC that is nominated by that state's Quad Riders Club/Association. If you have a gripe about the current GCRs or have a change that you would like made for next year you need to contact your state's Rep ASAP to notify them so they can discuss with your club's members to formulate a motion to take to all the NQAC Reps for discussion on a National level and referenced back to their club. The NQAC will base their final proposal on majority support for suggested changes.

As Bethwyn mentioned earlier, proposed changes to GCRs need to be made early in the year (some time in April I think) so the NQAC don't have long to formulate their proposal.

The 450cc 4-stroke class was discussed early in the year and agreed on. The basis of this was to have fair competition on standard capacity quads, so stockers weren't competing against 720 raptors and 500cc banshee's etc which compete in the Open class along with bored/stroked 450's.

I think VICTORIA refused to be would be involved in the NQAC at this stage due to a personal conflict with another rep and I was told by this person that they would go it alone for changes they sought. I urged Vic to nominate a rep all year as I didn't want their riders to miss out on having a say and this didn't happen until I finally got onto Pete W (which may have been after the NQAC GCR proposal had to be lodged by).

I believe this year every state except Tas has a rep on the NQAC so get onto them and voice your concerns re the current GCRs so they can perhaps be remedied for 2008.
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Proud Member of QuadridersSA
www.dualroost.com.au

[ozquad44]

It probably wasn't advertised well enough for you guys that built up 500cc donks, which is a fair call, shame on MA really. But if it wasn't for the big dollars you may have commited to your own projects would you have a problem with split classes?

I said it before but here I goes again... IMHO a 450 class and an open class is great stuff!! fellas!

Even in MX it works. On an MX track a Raptor/Predator/DS is handicapped by its weight as compared to a LTR/TRX/YFZ450, so it is probably unfair to put them in the same class. Where as on dirt track the roles are reversed, the 450 is then down on HP compared to the big bangers (last of the V8 interceptors as I like to think of them). Works both ways.

Currently the two classes can race together and just scored seperatly, but when we get numbers up then there may even be scope to split classes into seperate races. Although you might have to specify which quads can race in both classes. This would depend on the type of competition I suppose. I can't see the open class guys being too happy with the 450s running in the open class on an MX track. But then again if they were worth their salt maybe they would be saying bring it on fourfiddies????

As was mentioned before, the Rider has every thing to do with race outcomes, so to put your minds at ease all my comments have been based on the assumption that I'm talking equal riders here.
_________________
State governments give us REC rego + area to ride ATVs legaly! State Status: VIC-No (Nazi's) QLD-Yes(no place to ride tho) NT-? NSW-Yes, Stockton. TAS-Yes, Areas for ATVs + ATV rego, Go Tazzie . WA-Yes, 2 top places within 1hr of Perth. ACT-? SA-No

[Mrs_Gaitar]

Can I start a couple of discussion topics off?

1. Junior 90/110
should there be a list of acceptable rides like 2 wheelers?
instead of dabbling with cc, include Typhoon 125 in the existing category?
Make sure "All Junior Quads must run OEM engine cases and Frames" be added back into the book correctly... maybe make it OEM engine cases/cranks and frames????

2. Fix the Back protector rule that has always been grey
It could be as easy as "Back protector- ruling as per the discipline riders are competing in".
eg Road Racing/super moto must run full back protector
Motocross - Optional
Dirt Track?
_________________
www.waquadmx.com

[ozquad44]

1. Prehaps jumbo junior should get recognised, that way allowing all ages above a certain age to compete on a 125 machine? Aside from rule changes, Typhoons in the states come in many engine sizes 70. 90, 110, and 125 I think. Perhaps there is an opening there. Lastly, I agree with the frames and engine thing. Do we really want hybrids out there? Particularly in the junior classes. I want my kids to race on $3000 dollar machines not $15000 machines

2. Can't say I'm against one-piece back, shoulder, and elbow protectors. I bought a UFO "armadillo" suit after I broke my collarbone at Echo Valley. The next race I did after my recovery was at Reedy creek. Well long story short I clipped the second hump of a double and landed fair on the same shoulder I'd broken months before. Walked away without even a bruise. Take it from me the old school MX "roost protectors" are useless. Do yourselves a favour and spend $300 bucks on decent body armour. Its just the same as the $2 helmet for the $2 head thing. Get over the armor rule!

P.S. Love the picture of the nipper on the quad Dazza
_________________
State governments give us REC rego + area to ride ATVs legaly! State Status: VIC-No (Nazi's) QLD-Yes(no place to ride tho) NT-? NSW-Yes, Stockton. TAS-Yes, Areas for ATVs + ATV rego, Go Tazzie . WA-Yes, 2 top places within 1hr of Perth. ACT-? SA-No

[SIKMIC]

The armor rule is god. Like Jason said, The full pressure suit saves you. I rolled the quad goin half decent speed, ended up rolling over and over 3 or 4 times with the quad ontop of me everytime and got straight back up. To bad my quad didnt have armor on.
_________________
Mic

YFZ450
Thanks to ATV's Unlimited &
Luke Beechey Motorsports
mic902@hotmail.com

[47industries]

If you are not happy with the 450class, just add a 500cc class into your events sup regs. Don't add Jumbo Juniors into the GCR's. The sup regs should be for safety items, ages for classes etc. All the other stuff can be agreed upon by the NQAC and therefore the state quad clubs, but as soon as they go into the gcr's, we loose all flexability. We need black and white when it comes to rider safety, but room to move with classes etc because we keep changing our bloody minds! For example, when we introduced jumbos 3 years ago, because the gcr's for senior quads were pretty simple back then, we just made up the guidelines, added them to the sup regs of the events and ran them. Keep it simple.
Mick@47
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The way to this man's heart is through his esky

[ATV PRO]

PeteW wrote:

TODD 450 wrote: MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY.........i have a 502cc yfz, only to make up for what i lack in ability, but 450cc class......great news. As for polaris riders well you can detune it as i NSW rider is in the process of putting in a 440 kit, he rather race this class than compete againts 100HP banshees. Next race i'll be there with a true 450cc quad ! ( might just learn to ride faster) So you can afford to buy a new quad to do it with, what about guys who have already invested in 500cc kits and are set up for them, pretty much makes a whole emgine worthless (not really the right thing to turn into a trail bike). This effect quite a few people including the engine builders who wil now have t oput up with a whole heap of people complaining about not being able to use thier 500 engines. The point I'm really making is that there was no Warning that this change was going to happen and also no consultation with the NQAC whe it directly effects our classes. I wouldn't have so much of an issue with it if it was handled properly. Look at Moto-GP, they knew all season last year that this year they would have 800cc bikes, time to do some development, sort out how it's gonna work, not just say at the start of the year, ohh your capacity limit has changed, go build new motors.

I Agree with you 100% Pete and the other problem is you can build a good Big Bore TRX 500 cc to produce around 60 HP for about $5000 and to get 60 HP out of a 450 you will need to spend $ 7000 ? Looking at the Quads at the Nationals in WA I would suggest there was no one lacking in funds ! If its a $ thing then ride in Production class ,a Modified 450 cc class will not stop the big dollar engines it will only make it worse !
JMHO
_________________
Cheers
Len

ATV PRO Pty Ltd

[PeteW]

SIKMIC wrote:

The armor rule is god. Like Jason said, The full pressure suit saves you. I rolled the quad goin half decent speed, ended up rolling over and over 3 or 4 times with the quad ontop of me everytime and got straight back up. To bad my quad didnt have armor on.

It's about choice Mick, somepeople don't like to wear the pressure suits. I personally wear one myself whenever I ride on a quad or a dirt bike, but it's not about that, it is about being equal to the other disciplines and having choices.

I aggree on the disciplne specific thing that Bethwyn suggested for body armour, much more appropriate.

47, the problem is that quad riders don't get to be involved in stting up these dirt track and motard events that are effected by the capacitiy change.

Mrs_Gaitar wrote:

1. Junior 90/110 should there be a list of acceptable rides like 2 wheelers? instead of dabbling with cc, include Typhoon 125 in the existing category? Make sure "All Junior Quads must run OEM engine cases and Frames" be added back into the book correctly... maybe make it OEM engine cases/cranks and frames????

Victoria would like to see a similar thing with the Junior capacities Bethwyn, although I don't think I'd like to see cranks added to the OEM list.
_________________


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www.dirtcomp.com.au

[runt]

Mr Yellowman,
"what about mr rumble from QLD? whats your feedback?"

Um- Feedback?? Hold on, Ill ask my Gramps

[ozquad44]

Code:

[/quote]I Agree with you 100% Pete and the other problem is you can build a good Big Bore TRX 500 cc to produce around 60 HP for about $5000 and to get 60 HP out of a 450 you will need to spend $ 7000 ? Looking at the Quads at the Nationals in WA I would suggest there was no one lacking in funds ! If its a $ thing then ride in Production class ,a Modified 450 cc class will not stop the big dollar engines it will only make it worse ! JMHO[/quote]

Len am I correct in assuming that you think a 450 class and an Open class is not the way to go then?

As for the money thing, I can't understand your reasoning? If you can get 60hp out of a 450 for seven grand, then why wouldn't you just spend seven grand on the 500 as well and get it to pump out 70HP? instead of only 60? Your argument that a 450 class will make things worse sounds to me a bit like chicken little. The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

To put it into a little perspective. One of the Raptors that I used to race against pretty regularly had a $10,000 motor in it. Having a 450 class will make this situation worse how exactly?

If you only want to spend "$5K" and not "$7K" as you suggested. Then couldn't you just run your TRX"500" in the open class? For an oversized 450 things have not changed at all. You can still compete against 80hp Raptors and Banshees if you want. I for one would pefer to go up against other 450cc machines on my 450.
_________________
State governments give us REC rego + area to ride ATVs legaly! State Status: VIC-No (Nazi's) QLD-Yes(no place to ride tho) NT-? NSW-Yes, Stockton. TAS-Yes, Areas for ATVs + ATV rego, Go Tazzie . WA-Yes, 2 top places within 1hr of Perth. ACT-? SA-No

[SIKMIC]

I think Len is trying to say that people will spend the big money to get great power out of the 450's instead of spending less money and racing the bigger capacity/power bikes. So they are spending more money to get good power to stay in the 450 class, which is why it would make the cost of being on a competitive machine higher..... Hope that made sense.
_________________
Mic

YFZ450
Thanks to ATV's Unlimited &
Luke Beechey Motorsports
mic902@hotmail.com

[ozquad44]

Without trying to Diss you or Len, I know what he is saying, but I believe that it is a floored argument!

Modding machines is going to cost what it costs. Big bore machines are no cheaper to mod than 450 machines. The size of your wallet determines the cost of modifications not capacity! people will spend what they want.

To suggest that people only spend 5000K on big bore machines is fanciful thinking.
_________________
State governments give us REC rego + area to ride ATVs legaly! State Status: VIC-No (Nazi's) QLD-Yes(no place to ride tho) NT-? NSW-Yes, Stockton. TAS-Yes, Areas for ATVs + ATV rego, Go Tazzie . WA-Yes, 2 top places within 1hr of Perth. ACT-? SA-No

[CCR]

Dazza, what a great shot of the little bloke. The next Tim Farr? who knows.

[cowchaser]

I'm with you ozquad44
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Smitty

[fourtrax]

yeah oz aka "sarg" makes valid and what i thought were logical arguments.

lens on crack....

[John Mags]

Hmmmm.... cc limits. I guess it was only a matter of time. I guess we have always run an open class purely because we never had the numbers to split classes before. As the sport grows, I guess it is a good idea. There are over 5 bike classes at Finke based on cc alone, then there are age classes to add to that. Mind you, some of the over 45 vets on bikes kill ANY quad there and back. Still, you don't want to see 2 or 3 quads at the start gate because of a cc limit and generally speaking, horse power is over rated with the exception of drag racing and dirt track.
Just my thoughts.
_________________
When I'm racing I'm living..... everything else is just waiting.

[John Mags]

ozquad44 wrote:

Code: [/quote]I Agree with you 100% Pete and the other problem is you can build a good Big Bore TRX 500 cc to produce around 60 HP for about $5000 and to get 60 HP out of a 450 you will need to spend $ 7000 ? Looking at the Quads at the Nationals in WA I would suggest there was no one lacking in funds ! If its a $ thing then ride in Production class ,a Modified 450 cc class will not stop the big dollar engines it will only make it worse ! JMHO[/quote] Len am I correct in assuming that you think a 450 class and an Open class is not the way to go then? As for the money thing, I can't understand your reasoning? If you can get 60hp out of a 450 for seven grand, then why wouldn't you just spend seven grand on the 500 as well and get it to pump out 70HP? instead of only 60? Your argument that a 450 class will make things worse sounds to me a bit like chicken little. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. To put it into a little perspective. One of the Raptors that I used to race against pretty regularly had a $10,000 motor in it. Having a 450 class will make this situation worse how exactly? If you only want to spend "$5K" and not "$7K" as you suggested. Then couldn't you just run your TRX"500" in the open class? For an oversized 450 things have not changed at all. You can still compete against 80hp Raptors and Banshees if you want. I for one would pefer to go up against other 450cc machines on my 450.

Am I missing something here? $5000 and $7000 on engine hop ups? "profanity removed"! all I do is add an air filter and pipe then jet to suit! Maybe some extra HP would be nice but if the thing is so highly strung that it shits itself mid race, you have just DNF'd and blown all that cash.
I find spending $ on fuel and learning to ride makes me faster than any cam or port job ever could.
_________________
When I'm racing I'm living..... everything else is just waiting.

[ozquad44]

John Mags wrote:

ozquad44 wrote: Code: [/quote]I Agree with you 100% Pete and the other problem is you can build a good Big Bore TRX 500 cc to produce around 60 HP for about $5000 and to get 60 HP out of a 450 you will need to spend $ 7000 ? Looking at the Quads at the Nationals in WA I would suggest there was no one lacking in funds ! If its a $ thing then ride in Production class ,a Modified 450 cc class will not stop the big dollar engines it will only make it worse ! JMHO[/quote] Len am I correct in assuming that you think a 450 class and an Open class is not the way to go then? As for the money thing, I can't understand your reasoning? If you can get 60hp out of a 450 for seven grand, then why wouldn't you just spend seven grand on the 500 as well and get it to pump out 70HP? instead of only 60? Your argument that a 450 class will make things worse sounds to me a bit like chicken little. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. To put it into a little perspective. One of the Raptors that I used to race against pretty regularly had a $10,000 motor in it. Having a 450 class will make this situation worse how exactly? If you only want to spend "$5K" and not "$7K" as you suggested. Then couldn't you just run your TRX"500" in the open class? For an oversized 450 things have not changed at all. You can still compete against 80hp Raptors and Banshees if you want. I for one would pefer to go up against other 450cc machines on my 450. Am I missing something here? $5000 and $7000 on engine hop ups? "profanity removed"! all I do is add an air filter and pipe then jet to suit! Maybe some extra HP would be nice but if the thing is so highly strung that it shits itself mid race, you have just DNF'd and blown all that cash. I find spending $ on fuel and learning to ride makes me faster than any cam or port job ever could.

Despite what I've been dribblin on about in this thread, I'm with you Mags.

My 450 has only ever had a slip on, airfilter, rejet and the cam mod (which I dids Meself) total cost about $850 buckeroos. I'm putting in a 12.5:1 piston at the moment as preventative maintenance. The original piston did two seasons and I thought it was about time it had a little rest
_________________
State governments give us REC rego + area to ride ATVs legaly! State Status: VIC-No (Nazi's) QLD-Yes(no place to ride tho) NT-? NSW-Yes, Stockton. TAS-Yes, Areas for ATVs + ATV rego, Go Tazzie . WA-Yes, 2 top places within 1hr of Perth. ACT-? SA-No

[Q67Dazza]

where are we all with raising from 110cc to 125cc 4 stroke junior capacity limit

some current reasoning for-it + HP figures are debatable and sometimes unrealiable,,, but
put my kid on an 15hp KTM 65SX last year, they can be 7 year old in this age bracket
Cobra ECX 70 2 stroke is rated @ 13 HP
Pro shark / Eton & pred 90's all same 2 stroke motor are rated @ +-8.5-ish HP
125cc 4 stroke is rated @ +-11 HP
110cc are only rated @ 6 HP and are very slow
increasingly harder to get 110cc motors
bring's us a little more aligned with USA cc
.
there is more argument and rationale for the change and probably some against-it
M.A, want to see more visability in Quads and potentially Homolagation with and manufacturer / model table like the 2 wheelers have in the GCR rule book
.
any thoughts
yey or ney
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007257 where are you???.... bring back the Bling

[47industries]

It would be hard to specify actual makes and models allowed, as there are so many cheap quads available at the moment, all with a different name. It would be unfair to those not wanting to spend huge coin to not allow these budget Chinese imports at an entry level. Plus what happens if Yamaha or Honda release a new youth quad that is perfect for racing? It would take over a year to get it included in the GCR's!
Lets do all we can to keep it as simple as possible.
P.S. I am in favour of 90cc 2 stroke, 125 4 stroke oem cases and frame.
Mick@47
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The way to this man's heart is through his esky