OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[jumbo danny]

whats going to be the hard part of allowing the KTM QUAD OUT IN TO THE JUNIORS ?????

1 ;the 2008 model KTM QUAD and the Polaris mxr share the same motors right?

2; KTM also build a 250 version of this motor the 250exc 249.6cc
75 / 56.5 bore/stroke all fits into the same engine cases

so if you where to turn the 450 , 525/520/510, 540, 570 or even the 610/640 motor yep you read that right a 640, into the 250 who's going to stop this?

i do and have heard the argument before about detuning a 450 Yamaha or a Honda even the can am attempt but to me it's not quite the same.
here is a quad manufacture that just like that plonks a 250 OEM motor into the already existing frame and pronto one hell of a fantastic quad if only the powers to be would read this some thing good for the sport could happen may be even those guys in Vic & WA that sell these quads might read this and go well we don't have a good race proven quad yet this sound like a good idea and after juniors the motor gets the up grade ! { more $$$$ }
pro shark Australia come up with a similar idea in the 50cc to 90cc class great ideas for those who plan on keeping there gear for a while
any how enough of the jabbering let hear some response
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Last edited by jumbo danny on Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

[Huskygoat]

I think the rules state OEM as production. that is why the Apex will so good . Can't wait until KTM release one.
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[bullet]

in the 2008 GCR's what you're suggesting is completely legal.
Page 193 22.2.1.4 says "if" the word 'OEM' is specified...
and then 22.4.1 and 22.4.4.3 state that the Junior 200cc 2 stroke and 300cc 4 stroke class is a 'Modified' class.
So for 4 strokes, the only limitation is the 300cc + 5% engine capacity for the Junior Modified Class.

what does the 2009 MOMS say...
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Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Huskygoat]

Hey bullet that was quick Mrs Gaitar must be having her afternoon nap
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[hustleratv.com.au]

what does the 2009 MOMS say...[/quote]


The rules are the same in the new rule book; page.198-199 22.4.1.4 ,22.6.1 and 22.6.5.3 word for word.
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[PeteW]

The rules for Juniors in the MOM have been the same since 2006 and have always indicated that it would be legal to do this kind of transplant due to the omission of the siple little OEM frames and engine cases line, which is why it is always written into the supp regs for MX events.

I dont really see any difference in the argument for doing it with a KTM to with a Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki or Kawasaki, all these brands have an OEM 250 MX motor that would pretty much fit straight into their quad chassis without much mucking around. But for it to be generally accepted I think it would need to be a production version.
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[jumbo danny]

fare call there pete why did can am get knocked back?
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SA quad & motorcylce club member !
& also a member of SA KIAB racing team .

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[bullet]

I don't think anyone has been knocked back, so to speak.
no-one can be, the GCR's allow the mod you are talking about, and it will take at least another year to make MOMS change (if it is necessary).

Like Pete said though, the OEM thing pops up in event SR's.
Not allways, and SR's are quite flexible and negotiable and largely up to the individual event organisers discretion.

It's probably more a matter of being fair, consistent and doing the right thing.

The X-Team would love to build a sensible low budget DS250X to show manufacturers just one example of what Aussie Juniors might like to be riding.
I think the time will come soon.
I just hope that when which ever manufacturer does an OEM race 250 first, that other brands will be allowed to 'modify' up, down, sideways or whatever, to match the performance.

For example if Raptor 250's start winning everything this year...
maybe it's time to let Danny build a KTM250 and change the SR's for the very next race.

Maybe that is reasonable, see what happens hey
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Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

Last edited by bullet on Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

[Scooter]

Danny you could pull the KTM motor out of the Predator
Graft in a 250 and then you have a super jumbo/kids race quad
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[PeteW]

the only reason I didn't mention Can-Am in that line up is for the same reason that I didn't mention Polaris, neither of those brands have a 250 MX engine that is of the same design as their 450 quad engine. There another that I just thought of too, Gas Gas make a 200cc 2T water cooled motor that gets used in an enduro bike which would also be theoretically eligible.

I really think that if the was to be an allowance for this sort of thing then the junior 4T capacity should really be made 250cc and there would need to be another division in the junior age classes as it's probably not the best thing for kids to be able to step straight up out of the 90/110cc modified class straight into a fully modified 200/300cc class with what would be considered some fairly powerful engines involved.

One up shot of any quads like this being produced would be the possible inception of a senior 250/lites class like the ones that are run from club to national level in 2 wheel MX
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[bullet]

PeteW wrote:

I really think that if the was to be an allowance for this sort of thing then the junior 4T capacity should really be made 250cc and there would need to be another division in the junior age classes as it's probably not the best thing for kids to be able to step straight up out of the 90/110cc modified class straight into a fully modified 200/300cc class with what would be considered some fairly powerful engines involved.

Yeah, but now a 16 year old kid can get straight off an old blaster onto a worked 505 and race clubman on day one

There will always be odd situations that the rules can not ideally cover.
And there have been plenty of kids that have done that and competently slipped straight into Pro's.

Seeing as the GCR's already allow Junior modified 300 4 strokes...
that would be the logical place to start.
Amongst a hundred posibilities... a CRF250 motor in an 06 honda, or a 290 kit YZF250 motor is an old YFZ450 would have to be reasonable budget conversions.
Or if it's possible, sleeve down a TRX400 or LTZ400 to around 300cc for $500.
What about a TRX250R sleeved back to a 209cc racer, now that would be nice to see.


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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Linc]

OR.......just de-bore an old 250R to 210cc's.

[bullet]

Sorry Linc, you got in there first mate.
I was just editing a spelling mistake and chucked that one in.
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Can-Am X Team
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[Linc]

cool here mate.......X-Mas & New year to you and your lovely missus..

Linc

[PeteW]

bullet wrote:

Yeah, but now a 16 year old kid can get straight off an old blaster onto a worked 505 and race clubman on day one There will always be odd situations that the rules can not ideally cover. And there have been plenty of kids that have done that and competently slipped straight into Pro's. Seeing as the GCR's already allow Junior modified 300 4 strokes... that would be the logical place to start. Amongst a hundred posibilities... a CRF250 motor in an 06 honda, or a 290 kit YZF250 motor is an old YFZ450 would have to be reasonable budget conversions. Or if it's possible, sleeve down a TRX400 or LTZ400 to around 300cc for $500. What about a TRX250R sleeved back to a 209cc racer, now that would be nice to see.

16yr olds who have been racing blasters, particularly if they are at the top of the class, are a vastly different scenario to 12yr olds coming into the class for the first time, not every 12 yr old is physically big enough to ride a 450 chassis.

if you were going to go to all that trouble with a 400EX why not just import a 300EX, that would be the best 4T to buy even if you were on a budget for the class.

if you were to start allowing HP water cooled 4T engines then the capacity should be what that engine comes as +5% and not going to big oversizes, especially if your trying to keep the prices down, also a YZ250F engine in a quad would be a lot more fragile than in the MX bike its designed to be in so I reckon that a competitive one even without a big bore kit would cost more over a season than you would expect.
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[noodles]

What about this part of the rules then

22.6.5 Junior age groups
22.6.5.1 Subject to the next sub rule and GCR 12.16.0.1

no person who
a) has attained the age of 16
b) Is unable to right their machine

may compete in any junior competition
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[bullet]

PeteW wrote:

16yr olds who have been racing blasters, particularly if they are at the top of the class, are a vastly different scenario to 12yr olds coming into the class for the first time, not every 12 yr old is physically big enough to ride a 450 chassis.

That's just one extreme which I already mentioned.
What about the light weight 16yr olds that raced a blaster at the bottom of the class for half a season?
They might be a lot slower, far less skilled or vastly different to a National champ winning 12 year old entering the 200-300 'Modified' class.
And there are plenty of big 12 - 16 year olds who can easily handle a 450 chassis.

There is no argument that covers all scenarios and any rules would fit just as well. These people all need parents or guardians support to enter, and that's where the greatest responsibility should sit.

The real point is...
there is a huge gap between 200cc blasters and 450cc 4 stroke racers that even american quad magazines have been whining about for years.
Our existing GCR Modified 300cc +5% 4 stroke concept fits in there perfectly...
So why isn't anyone doing it?
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Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[scottydig]

I have an 11 year old who turns 12 in march and is very keen to start racing in the 12-16 class. He is currently riding a trx400ex which he rides very comfortably on the track and in the bush.He is an average size kid ;weighs about 38kgs but has great balance!! He has a friend with a ds90x [ correct bike for 11 yr old] which my son throws around easily but is painfully slow. At the other end of the scale he can throw his leg over my 700 raptor and me on his 400 and leave me eating dust till the cows come home. My dilemma is to find a bike for him to race on. Blaster,trx300ex or raptor250. In the current mag. they take a 250 raptor and turn it into a 300 raptor. OEM frame and OEM case!!!! What is the difference between upsizing an OEM motor to meet max. class allowable capacity or downsizing an OEM motor to suit. I would love to give my son a competitive quad to race on .Go the tried and true way [blaster, etc] and have a KTM, yfz, trx hybrid come along and smoke the competion OR go the hybrid way and risk not being able to race or have the rules changed next year making the bike obsolete.The plot thickens !!!!!!
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[mitch41]

What club are you in scottydig and where is it located?
I am looking for places that let juniors race in queensland.\

Thx, it would be great if you could get back to me, q0d

[OZ_450]

bullet wrote:

Yeah, but now a 16 year old kid can get straight off an old blaster onto a worked 505 and race clubman on day one

There will always be odd situations that the rules can not ideally cover.
And there have been plenty of kids that have done that and competently slipped straight into Pro's
[/quote]

you have 16 yr olds out there throwing 450's round very easily

likes of jono and mitch who came from blasters to 450s and handle the bigger quad very easily

then ya have likes of Tim who had first season racing a quad straight onto a 450

i think these days most kids just adapt no matter what age they are

i think manufacturers need to start looking at the junior quads for racing as yamaha have started the ball rolling wont be long before others follow as look what happened when suzuki brought the ltr out now u have yam , ktm , canam all with mx versions straight out of box
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[Predatory]

I know in South Africa there was a 250 cc barrel available for the GAS GAS Wild 300, which meant just a barrel and piston and you had a Mild 250 instead of a Wild 300. The Juniors loved it but it was outlawed for some reason unkown to me.
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[Mrs_Gaitar]

Lucky we all have Clubmans class nowadays for the new seniors to learn in , on their 450's.

Let the kids be kids, let them ride bikes they can throw around, cause you can never go back.

We have 26 licensed to race 200/300cc this season,
They all ride Blaster 200/ raptors 250/ honda 300

This Junior program we've had in place since 2005 has rewarded us with riders filtering into Seniors and populating Clubmans & Womens with excellent riders. Future looks bright, and cant wait to see how the latest group of riders who have upgraded to senior fair.

We are now back to concentrating on 90cc...... now those rules certainly need fixing.
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[bullet]

I think in stock form, the Honda 300's are heavier and tippier than all of the stock 450's (about 170kg?)
Unless you modify them to wider than a stock 450, which I spose many of the Juniors do for racing.
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