OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[PJSRZR]

Due to a date change, the first round of the Xtreme 4x4 Challenge is now being held over the weekend of the 17th and 18th of April at Rover Park, east of Tenterfield, northern NSW. So for anyone who can't make the event at Melbourne in May, this might be the go for you as the event organiser is more than happy to have us run at his event under CCDA specs..

If you might be interested drop me a PM and I can give you more details. At this stage we will be taking up both our RZRs to have a run.

Phil

[Dino]

Hey Queenslanders! Rover Park is a good gig! And only just in cockroach territory!
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[fox'n]

See ya there!
Fox'n
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[SXS Machine Racing Team]

I'd have a dip but Im already commited on that date with a show in Melbourne.

You guys have fun and pics are a requirement!!
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[jackass/450]

Hey Phil - you still going on the weekend??

[ROOTS RACING]

is this just for utv or cars as well
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[fox'n]

primarily cars, but there is a few of us sxs ers going to have a run too.
Cheers,fox'n
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OUTDOORS....THE PLACE TO BE,WHATEVER THE WEATHER.

[PJSRZR]

Yes mate, just doing a few mods to one of the RZR's and getting some spares together. Going to use this as a shake down for Melbourne. If anyone else is attending, please come and introduce yourself, there is 3 of us competing.

Phil

[jackass/450]

See you down there - leaving Gladstone shortly

[gothev8]

How did it go? Any pics??
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2012 Polaris RZR XP Turbo
2009 Polaris RZR 170

[fox'n]

Was a great weekend, and certainly lived up to the EXTREME side of 4wd WINCH COMPETITION. The boys from Tamworth had a ball with their two RZR 'S s and ran nearly all stages.I was not so adventurous and did'nt run as many stages but what we did was great fun especially the night stages on friday.They are a very capable machine even though we had a couple of offs, but with a few more hours behind the wheel I am sure confidance will see us a bit more on the pace. We did,however get a podium finish for our first event.(it did help that there was only three entrants, he. he.) There will be some photos and footage of the event up on the extreme winch website I believe, and 4WD tv covered it as well, so we might get on the telly too!
It will be well worth a look, those comp trucks are really something too! I am sure Phil will post a report and the link in the next few days, if not, I will let you know.
Cheers, FOX,N
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[jackass/450]

Forgot me camera so no pics - sorry.

Yes there were parts of the tracks that were extreme but to a lot of peoples surprise it did not seem too be outside of these machines capabilities. From what I saw there was no real damage to the UTVs whilst competing which was also a bonus.

I had the opportunity to briefly catch up with Phil on Sunday to discuss moving this sport forward. I have to agree that there are a number of issues / items that need to be discuss in further detail so that the we have the opportunity to grow this sport.

I do applaud the efforts being made to make limitations to the amount of modifications which are going to be allowed however, I do have concernes that it will turn into a one brand event - this is only my views as I see it.

At this point in time I an unable to make it to Melbourne but I haven't ruled it out at the moment as I would like be involved and offer assistance to help get this off the ground.

Cheers
Chris

[SXS Machine Racing Team]

There's a lot to agree with what you said Chris.

We do have a lot of work to do to put forward more eventing opportunities including getting affiliated with either of both MA and CAMS, we have to meet someone's set of rules and reg's to move forward with participation. Only then will we get to compete in the big outdoor events such as Finke, the Condo 750, and other events including short and long course MX including indoor events.

And its true that by limiting modification of current vehicles does create a single brand competition in favor of the RZR'S pak. To address this we need to work with manufacturers to let them know we want to have a production competition to limit costs and so bring manufacturers to the party. We also though for the sake of the competition have to have a modified class because event the person riding recreationally wants to do something to his bike to peronalise or enhance performance in the way so a modified class is a given and maybe classes within that.

Yes all this is to be worked out. First step I believe is to get affiliated with MA or CAMS or both as I said.

So there will be plenty of work for all in terms of getting these things to all happen and personally I'd like to have them in place in time so that next year we can compete in events like Finke, maybe thats ambitious timing but without some kind of ambition or goal we wont have a timeline and we wont be driven to succeed.

So maybe we should open a general thread about the national affiliation of SxS machines and RUV's, both 2wd and 4wd.

Cheers guys

Gavin
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[jackass/450]

I could be wrong - buttttttttttt I thought there were already a couple of RZR's competing in the Finke???????????

[SXS Machine Racing Team]

jackass/450 wrote:

I could be wrong - buttttttttttt I thought there were already a couple of RZR's competing in the Finke???????????

Massively modified $40k worth and no 4wd.
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[jackass/450]

So someone as already set the bar high in Australia????????????

[SXS Machine Racing Team]

jackass/450 wrote:

So someone as already set the bar high in Australia????????????

I see it as more that somebody tok a RZR and made it into something that wasnt a RZR. The chassis was completely replaced and the front transaxles moved and its was basically modified to meet an exist 2wd buggy category sub-regs.

We need regs that match our RUVs not the other was round so we can race at stock or near as to it. In my humble opinion.

But also the ability to grade modifications into a couple or more classes? etc.
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[PJSRZR]

And there lies my point. Don't seriously believe that you can compete in these SXS machines on the cheap to do the Finke or Condo or the Safari. A lot of my friends competed in both of these last events in full size buggies and 4x4's. It would just be too cost prohibitive to try and convert a RZR to run without damage in these type of events, I have already looked into this. It would be cheaper, safer and more comfortable for me to run a buggy or my comp 4x4. I can assure you I know of one RZR racing and he has spent well in excess of $40,000 on his machine.

So by all means if people want to see SXS go down the path of CAMS then so be it. But I can assure you it will no longer be cheap fun and from personal experience I would have no interest in ever wanting to put something small like a SXS down that track at Finke over those wombat holes, if you worry about the damage you might do in Melbourne, Finke and Condo will never be on your list of things to do. You would only ever do it once, then go and buy a full size buggy, the costs won't be too far apart guys.

From a one make perspective, we have already had discussion about this topic. We no longer believe we could ever achieve parity amongst the brands without forcing major costs into the sport and we are more inclined to run seperate classes for each make. The emphasis then being put back onto the manufacturers to see their brands sell and compete. However if it happens to be that only Polaris get behind SXS sport as they are, thats not a fault of Polaris, thats just lack of enthusiasm on the part of the other brands. Polaris are already well down the path of offering their dealers incentives to get involved in some form of competition, what are the other brands doing?

I personally would like nothing more than to turn up to an event and see a class of Rhino's and a class of RZRs all competing in a variety of events and stages (not all winching) that gives a great weekend of sport and keeps the whole damage and cost factor down. CAMS would require some major expense for these machines and I don't want to see us start playing for sheep stations, this is just for the fun of it.

Just food for thought,

Phil

[gothev8]

Phil,

Are you saying that to meet CAMS regulations we would have to heavily modify our machines?

As for the one make situation I believe there will be a new SXS available soon (CanAm) that will definately be able to compete with a RZR.

Glad you had fun anyway, shame I couldnt go
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2012 Polaris RZR XP Turbo
2009 Polaris RZR 170

[SXS Machine Racing Team]

PJSRZR wrote:

And there lies my point. Don't seriously believe that you can compete in these SXS machines on the cheap to do the Finke or Condo or the Safari. A lot of my friends competed in both of these last events in full size buggies and 4x4's. It would just be too cost prohibitive to try and convert a RZR to run without damage in these type of events, I have already looked into this. It would be cheaper, safer and more comfortable for me to run a buggy or my comp 4x4. I can assure you I know of one RZR racing and he has spent well in excess of $40,000 on his machine. So by all means if people want to see SXS go down the path of CAMS then so be it. But I can assure you it will no longer be cheap fun and from personal experience I would have no interest in ever wanting to put something small like a SXS down that track at Finke over those wombat holes, if you worry about the damage you might do in Melbourne, Finke and Condo will never be on your list of things to do. You would only ever do it once, then go and buy a full size buggy, the costs won't be too far apart guys. From a one make perspective, we have already had discussion about this topic. We no longer believe we could ever achieve parity amongst the brands without forcing major costs into the sport and we are more inclined to run seperate classes for each make. The emphasis then being put back onto the manufacturers to see their brands sell and compete. However if it happens to be that only Polaris get behind SXS sport as they are, thats not a fault of Polaris, thats just lack of enthusiasm on the part of the other brands. Polaris are already well down the path of offering their dealers incentives to get involved in some form of competition, what are the other brands doing? I personally would like nothing more than to turn up to an event and see a class of Rhino's and a class of RZRs all competing in a variety of events and stages (not all winching) that gives a great weekend of sport and keeps the whole damage and cost factor down. CAMS would require some major expense for these machines and I don't want to see us start playing for sheep stations, this is just for the fun of it. Just food for thought, Phil

In terms of CAMS regs and what that would require I think we should let them tell us after they have decided to CREATE a class for these specific vehcles not try and force us into other classes already created, They are a unique PRODUCTION vehicle.

I agree totally its for the fun of it and concur with that. I dont want it to cost an arm and a leg let alone a sheep station but most people want to make some modification to their vehicle and want some type of eventing and the majority vote on the forum was more of a condo or finke style race.

Having said that 2 wheelers and ATV's go down Finke Condo and Australasian safari without substatial modification so I, having bought the RZR because it was a more competant vehicle, would have no trouble at this stage asking for a class to be created by CAM's for both stock and modified vehicles. Drive the unit tpo your capability and that of your machine just like in CCDA. Its fun enough to compete and those who want to spend it can do that too.

In terms of the the single make decision you say you have had a discussion about, I'm not sure who that was with and what that applies to but Im assuming its just CCDA events. And that is entirely reasonable for stock vehicles. I should come first in my own division of stock RZR

As I said the preassure is on CAMS and MA from my point of view to create classes for our stock vehicles not the other way round.

Besides both Polaris and Can-Am may/will have new machines at the end of the year that may comply more fully with regulations for these bodies and be more capable in these events stock yet again so talking to these motoring bodies isnt out of place nor is the ambition to compete in events even right now IMHO.

Keep the thought processes going and we'll have a healthy discussion at Melbourne and hopefully develop more out of that.

Gavin
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[PJSRZR]

Yes. As CAMS are used to dealing with Off Road Race machines capable of up to 200km/h, more than likely they would write their class regs around this possible scenario, meaning our roll cage would not be approved for a start (even though the 2010 RZR is US ROPS approved). Have a look at some of the stuff that Dragonfire racing make to give you an idea. Because of the speed, their safety requirements are much higher. Another example, CAMS license per year=$190 per person, CCDA=$40.

Having been involved with both forms of off road racing, No matter what form of motorsport, more speed means more money. Thats what you need to keep in mind when thinking about what you want to do with your SXS.

Maybe MA is a better option, but I am unfamiliar with their organisation and costs etc. I certainly think an event like Kamfari would be much better suited to SXS's, maybe Thumbpump too, I don't know.

Phil

[PJSRZR]

We are certainly aware of the possible unit from Can-am coming later in the year. Now lets say it has, as speculated a 990cc motor. That straight away makes it far more powerful than an RZR. So, if an RZR owner is very competitive, he is either faced with spending alot of money on buying a Can-am, or a turbo kit or a new motor for his RZR. But thats not the end of it, what if the Can-am is 4 inches wider too, well now the RZR owner has to spend big bucks on a suspension kit too. So he goes out and does this, then Polaris launches a 1100cc RZR and the whole scenario starts all over again.

Who is going to have the time to continually try and modify rules to keep them on parity and keep all competitiors happy. It would be like a dog chasing its tail, it will never happen. Just with the above scenario alone without Yamaha or Kawasaki or KTM getting involved is a nightmare for anyone trying to run an event. Because of our small numbers, CAMS will just make a blanket class, max CC to be "X" and away you go. Given the huge variety of motorsport they cover, I would find it hard to see CAMS having the people/resources to spend the time to create multiple classes that we might want to have.

This is why we are inclined to think that seperate classes be created around the specific brands of SXS's. If anyone wanted to heavily modify their SXS and really race the Finke, you could enter a SXS now in the 1600cc and under buggy class. (Or the 1200cc class if it still exists).

Phil

[SXS Machine Racing Team]

PJSRZR wrote:

Yes. As CAMS are used to dealing with Off Road Race machines capable of up to 200km/h, more than likely they would write their class regs around this possible scenario, meaning our roll cage would not be approved for a start (even though the 2010 RZR is US ROPS approved). Have a look at some of the stuff that Dragonfire racing make to give you an idea. Because of the speed, their safety requirements are much higher. Another example, CAMS license per year=$190 per person, CCDA=$40. Having been involved with both forms of off road racing, No matter what form of motorsport, more speed means more money. Thats what you need to keep in mind when thinking about what you want to do with your SXS. Maybe MA is a better option, but I am unfamiliar with their organisation and costs etc. I certainly think an event like Kamfari would be much better suited to SXS's, maybe Thumbpump too, I don't know. Phil

I'll be at Thumbpump this w/e ( fingers crossed I leave Melbourne tommorrow) not to compete but to potentially marshal, driving the SxS around. MA will be there too...
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[Dino]

My 2 cents on the RZR and this class of vehicle as a competition machine...
A 4 wheel drive buggy is a unique vehicle.
It doesn't really fit in any category out there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Whether you guys bend CAMS's or MA's ears, you'll need a body to represent your unique class to them.
Either way, you would probably have to adapt to any events they MIGHT offer. And those adaptations might cripple the numbers able to compete.
The costs in competing, let alone being competitive, in speed events......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Phil, through your being a dealer, do you have any way of telling the numbers of RZR sold in Australia? And maybe where they are?
If you've got enough numbers, maybe bend POLARIS AUST.'s ears about sponsoring a season or so of a clubman type events around the country that would suit a standard or near standard machine and their unique abilities.
It's in their best interests to make a sport of being a owner of these type vehicles.
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[jackass/450]

All very valid points. I think that Phil has summed it up in a nutshell with regards to chasing and making new rules every time that each brand has new releases.

Also, having competed in the Finke in a class 1 buggy, I dont think that I would like to run in a fairly stock utv as Phil is right about cost of not only the breakages but the cost involved in being licensed, spares not to mention getting there and back as well as lost time at work (we all have to work to be able to afford this types of sport - well I do anyway)
I reckon by the half way mark of the whoops you would be wanting out.

I know that Phil and I discuss trying to bring every thing together as an equal by the possibility of having a class for each brand - not sure if this is the answer?????????? not sure really why either.

I noticed that Phil touched on the subject of limiting engine size - this is were I thought we could head with regards to making all units equal. What about if this theory was taken a step forward:

Limit engine capacity - possibly to 800cc naturally aspirated.
Limit vehicle width - of the shelf suspension kit for the Rhino?????
Limit vehicle length

The problem with that is you will never truely know what someones engine capacity is without completing some expensive testing - take go carts for example where the top three finishers have the motors pulled down and are tested for capacity.

OR are we taking this too far and losing sight of what possibly everyone would like to acheive from competing with these machines - FUN AND EXCITMENT at a reasonable cost. I know that I was watching from the sideline on the weekend wishing I had pulled my finger out and draged my fairly stock Rhino down for the weekend not really giving a rats backside if I had come first or last - some of those tracks looked fun. There was even one hill climp out of a gully which an RZR drove and most of the trucks had to winch hahaha.

Well you are probably sick of reading my crap now - I will go back into my box

Cheers
Chris