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[scottydig]

Once again your flying the flag for all qld quads.
As always a super job Dino.

thanks scotty
QQRA pres.
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06 700 raptor 50th anniversary

[kawboy]

Yes mate, big pat on the back for you and a BIG thank you. Keep it up brother.
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"Happiness is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it but only you can feel it"

LOONEY TUNED KFX 450R
LOONEY TUNED BRUTE 765

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[Dino]

http://azstateparks.com/ohv/downloads/OHV_2009_Brochure.pdf

We've sent the above in to DERM for comment. $8 million annually in revenue that is put back into the trail network........

And just so people know, the new crew in Qld politics are now being briefed by the senior shiny bums. The senior shiny bums will wait for firm orders before doing anything, including telling the other shiny bums what's going on. The good news is that some of the old shiny bumbed road blocks have left!
This new crew are committed to ignoring us for the 1st 100 days of the Emporer Newman's reign. While that is going on we are putting together a presentation for a whole of Govt approach to the many issues we've uncovered during the inter-depatmental tennis that the previous administration used us as a ball for.......
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Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Dino]

I got an initial reply from DERM....

"I like it; feasibility ? not sure. I think it is definitely do-able if the government really wanted it to happen & people were happy with a user-pays scheme - BUT, you are one of the few people around who realise the enormity of trying to get it off the ground - in particular getting TMR on board with a decent rego scheme!

Give me a call in a week or 2 - I might have something to add...

cheers"

I will also add this from another very senior executive in DERM during a phone call to me at 6pm late last week....

" Yes, the current registration system leaves us with liability issues, hence our current policies. We would most definately be reviewing our policies should a more functional training and accreditation come into being.
We are supportive of responsible usage."
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Sean O]

Good work Dino.
_________________

[Dino]

A tall poppy advised me today that DERM has/is being busted up. Kind or a retro break-up, Forestry, National Parks and the EPA are to go their seperate ways. I'll provide more info as it comes to hand. This is very good news by the way.
Also, SEQ quad riders are looking like getting a bit of a go on a trial basis. Areas to ride, permits and how to make the current rego* work are being worked on as you read this. Note that this is a trial only. Being a trial, monitoring will be in place. Only permit holders will be accepted, anyone else will cop it. What we hope, is that the trials prove successful, and with the inevitable tweaking, become available for the rest of the state.
* The problems with the current rego, to DERM, is the written permision part and liability to those who sign off on a permit. ( The Dept is exempted by law....) And liability is an issue when a work place health and safety system is used. The only available quad certification is not relevant to recreational use. ( We're working on that too, and are quite advanced at that level.)
And we have a new Police Commisioner coming! Hard nosed, hates quads and fun, "chook raffle" Bob Atkens is finally retiring! This is also very good news.
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[kawboy]

Great news!
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"Happiness is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it but only you can feel it"

LOONEY TUNED KFX 450R
LOONEY TUNED BRUTE 765

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[Elponkin]

Read this post with interest, my son James is a paraplegic due to a bike accident and he now has a conditional rego Canam Renegade 1000. We have been battling with DERM for legal right to access forests etc and their policy does allow use by mobility impaired but they reckon that is only to access facilities such as toilet blocks and certainly not for recreational use.
We have put together a case through Anti Discrimination QLD on the basis he should have the same rights to access as ablebodied individuals such as trail riders and the case comes up for conciliation on Friday this week.
James is being backed by the Spinal Injuries Association and they reckon we have a good case.
Unfortunately this case will be no benefit to you guys but may start to put a few more cracks in the wall of bureacrecy.
Would be much easier if they opened up conditional rego as you are suggesting. Good luck with your fight.
Andy

[kawboy]

Dino, any chance you could link up with these guy's as they are fighting the good fight? http://www.4wdaction.com.au/takeaction#video-player

Watch the videos.
_________________
"Happiness is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it but only you can feel it"

LOONEY TUNED KFX 450R
LOONEY TUNED BRUTE 765

http://www.youtube.com/user/michealmannion?feature=mhum

[Dino]

kawboy wrote:

Dino, any chance you could link up with these guy's as they are fighting the good fight? http://www.4wdaction.com.au/takeaction#video-player Watch the videos.

They are fighting, and fighting for a cause I strongly believe in.
Specifically, that responsible people should not be denied the freedom to enjoy our land, and our water. And that's a very important point, it is ours.
It is not solely for minority groups to dictate the access to such areas.

I'm involved with the, quite organised, 4wd Clubs of Qld Association.
Our most vocal enemy is the same tree huggers that supported the State Govt that just got tipped out in Qld. The pendulum is swinging back up here.

But across the country, a lot of other groups are getting organised.
In short, responsible people are sick of everyone getting treated as if we are all the lowest common denominator, the hoons and the louts.

Hoons and louts always have, and probably always will exist and make life more difficult than it needs to be for everyone else, including the authorities. It is this lot, that is causing a lot of grief.

Personally speaking, I hate them as much as the irrational "ban it" brigade. Neither group gives a cracker about any opinion other than their own IMO, Kawboy. Neither group is representative of the majority of people.

At a recent meeting, it was made ferociously clear to the authorities that they can get stuck right into the mongrels, and back right off from the the rest of us, we are over being restricted for other peoples actions, or fear of what the baddies might do.

And to update what is going on about fighting for a functional form of registration......

We now have the services of professional lobbyists.
Good enough for the anti's, it's good enough for us.

These lobbyists, they are better spoken than me, undoubtably better suited to dealing with the uninformed "advisors" who tell the unaware politicians, what the unsuspecting public may want to hear.
These lobbyists are going state by state.
Nationally, it will be approached further, but probably post Federal election.

We will continue to work together, to create awareness of the social and financial benefits we offer to the wider community. Events such as the Quad Muster @ Townsville, as well as industry information seminars (to the govts.) are part of this plan. Dealers, tour operators, Clubs, manufacturers, accessory suppliers as well as the cranky old trail riders like me, will be invited to participate.

This approach is not new, and has been successfully applied by many industries over the decades. This isn't a knock out way to win this fight, because there isn't one. We've pushed this further and harder than previous attempts, and we'll do a lot more yet.
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Dino]

On the news tonight, Emperor Newmann wants Qlders to dob in a useless beaurocrat. Someone who has dithered, misled or mis-informed you.
He has asked to please email his department and name and shame them with examples. ( He needs to axe some jobs but isn't sure where to start....)
Our team has a significant portfolio of them!

His depts contact details below......
http://www.thepremier.qld.gov.au/tools/contact.aspx

Fairly sure a few posters on this thread have been outright lied and mistreated because they choose to ride a quad..........
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Dino]

Dino wrote:

Also, SEQ quad riders are looking like getting a bit of a go on a trial basis. Areas to ride, permits and how to make the current rego* work are being worked on as you read this. Note that this is a trial only. Being a trial, monitoring will be in place. Only permit holders will be accepted, anyone else will cop it. What we hope, is that the trials prove successful, and with the inevitable tweaking, become available for the rest of the state. * The problems with the current rego, to DERM, is the written permision part and liability to those who sign off on a permit. ( The Dept is exempted by law....) And liability is an issue when a work place health and safety system is used. The only available quad certification is not relevant to recreational use. ( We're working on that too, and are quite advanced at that level.)

I have been advised that this trial thing has been sent "upstairs" to be sent to Parliament for the legislative changes to occur to allow it to be.
Mountain bike riders and the clip clop crews have had some wins however.
Pffft. if it's got more tha one horsepower, it's hard.....
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Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Dino]

After many months of waiting, the Ministers Office has finally responded.
Whilst a comprehensive consideration was given, it would appear that a review is to be undertaken of the conditional registration system in Qld will be undertaken with a view to reducing red tape.

This at least means they are trying to get a handle on it. We will be participating in this review pointing out the abject failures of a system designed for "working equipment", added to ad hoc in a agenda driven, bum covering manner.

Simply put, the current system barely works for businesses, is hardly understood by most and fails dismally for individual recreation.

And to underline a very significant truth about what we are driving at:
We don't want PRIMARY ROAD ACCESS, merely red tape reduced legal areas to recreate in, with possible minor road access within these areas.

We would like to see a whole of Government approach to address the numerous issues facing the many different areas and users of quads and side by sides are left getting lumped with due to ineffective governance.
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Dino]

And one of our team just got this:

"Dr Mr Quad Rider.

Thank you for your email to the Department of Transport and Main Roads (TMR) about quad bike access.

Further access for quad bikes in areas outside of TMR’s jurisdiction, such as in national parks or forests in Queensland, would require consideration from the Department of National Parks, Recreation, Sport and Racing (NPRSR).

To ensure quad bike riders are afforded the most efficient process in attaining conditional registration, the granting of permits and gaining access to national parks, TMR will approach NPRSR and discuss ways to make the process for obtaining permits from them as effective as possible.

Thanks for raising this issue and I hope the above information is of assistance.

Kind regards,

*** **********
Transport Policy Officer | Transport Regulation
Customer Services, Safety and Regulation Division | Department of Transport and Main Roads"
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Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

Last edited by Dino on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total

[Dino]

Numbers.....

According to the FCAI, over 220 quads thousand sold in Australia since records began about 10 years ago. Individual State figures are not available and the best guess scenario is a pro rata basis. On that basis, Qld has 20% of the population so 44 thousand plus quads.*

From information obtained through FOI by myself:
"NUMBER OF QUAD BIKES ON QUEENSLAND REGISTER
AS AT 30 SEPTEMBER 2010"
Body Desc RegCat desc TOTAL
MOTOR QUADCYCLE COND REGO (LITE VEH) 38
TRIKE/QUAD OFF ROAD COND REG LIMITED 1,546
TRKE/QD OF/RD PRM/PR COND REG LIMITED 265
TRKE/QD OF/RD PRM/PR COND REG ZONE 466
TOTAL 2,315"

*These figures are incomplete because

• This only includes a few side by sides and utility vehicle.
• This only includes data from members lists of the FCAI
• The rego numbers provided are only for the year 2010.

So, whilst acknowledging that these figures are not accurate, the disparity between sales and registration figures strongly suggest that significantly more than some 5% of the machines should be registered under the conditional registration system. Oh wait! Conditional registration in Qld is complicated, dysfunctional and does not work for recreational people while the written permission component, without a widely understood working knowledge of the system, and underlined by a fear of litigation, ensures that it will remain so.

The Qld Transport Ministers Office recently pointed out to me and other colleagues, via correspondence, that some 129 riders have died, nationwide, on quads during this 10 year period. Hmm, 220 000 divided over a 129 = 0.000586%. And while we all share the feelings about loss of life, I also would have a closer look at the factual information relating to these incidents, and apply that information into perspective. Also relevant, is that these deaths have occurred in a normally unregulated and off road arena. I will be obtaining data on the number of registered vehicles in Qld and comparing it to the State road toll, and then asking the Transport Ministers Office if they really want to go there…………….
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Dino]

Due to our continuing campaign, which has highlighted many issues, the Premiers office has ordered a review into the "red tape" of the conditional registration system in Qld by TMR.
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Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Dino]

I received a reply, allegedly written and signed by the Minister after 3 months of sustained pressure, after three months of nothing.
As you will see, I waited a while before I responded.
And for good reason.
I also sent this to the Premiers Office, and my local MP.
The lack of response reminds me of spotlighting rabbits.............
"
Dear Minister, Scott Emerson,


I waited a very long time for this response, dated 31/10/12 . I met with Seath in April of last year.


Our discussion revolved around the following:


I was painfully aware of both the legislation in place, and the various policies abounding the issues. It was made very clear that the group, to which I belonged, were sick of beaurocratic tennis, knew how the "system" was supposed to work, that it did not, and why not, and that we were keen on a whole of government approach to promote a functional and safer form of limited registration for recreational use, with benefits to on flow with tourism, local communities, disaster response and safety.

The current scenario was related to the exact same circumstances which led to the adoption of recreational boating legislation some three decades ago. I have included the same overview I provided Seath over 12 months ago.


An appraisal of facts, including nationwide numbers, (250 thousand +)correlating to over 45 000 quad bikes alone in Qld, was presented, as was a variety of current working models for consideration. It was also clearly demonstrated that TMR hold the key for progress, and the actual machine workings were already in place.


Much of this is in the Recreational Areas Management Act 2007. It needs significantly more land attatched and Qld has plenty of it. I believe this act is currently under review. The huge disparity between quads actually registered and those in use was also brought to attention. Broadly speaking, over 5 million in revenue is not being utilised.


I was most impressed with Seath's grasp of the issues, the workings and his desire to see the same goals achieved.
To be frank, his enthusiasm and dedication to his electorate is admirable, and I thank him for his work.


Without wishing to dwell on the unpleasant untruths, misleading and unrelated information, and outright lies of some of our dealings with the previous administration, we were, and still are,keen to replace the red and green tape with progressive strategies with the new attitude our new govt. has promised us.


To say the least, the response provided, was along the same lines of misleading and unrelated and cross jurisdictional waffle that we were previously fed. I really have to question whether yourself actually researched the response provided.
It has been observed that while Queenslander's replaced the tired old Govt. of the previous administration at the last election, we are still stuck with the same bureaucratic nonsense that got the last mob kicked out.


One questions whether the horse or the jockey is steering........


While I understand the portfolio you represent is quite larger than most Third World Countries entire economy, and that errors can be always found, what foolish notion was it to compare quad fatalities with road use?


We have never asked for open road access. "Our" environment, unregulated and without ADR's nationwide has resulted in 128 fatalities in a decade. On Qld roads alone, heavily regulated and controlled, 78 deaths for 2013, compared to the 62 for the same period last year. And, contextually speaking, I'll add that the national road toll is not even close to the top 20 annual causes of death.


But there is one quad death I plant fair and square at the current administrations numerous desks.
And I provide this excerpt from a recent communication, from myself to a interested party:
"The young fellow’s name was Taren Alexander.

"By memory:
He rang me about late November or early December. He got my number from “someone� in the QQRA.

That conversation stood out because he was an apprentice butcher and spoke quite well.
Whilst the theme of the conversation was similar to so many, he really struck me as quite clued up on the issues.

He struck me as a young fellow who was very aware of his good fortune.
He had an good apprenticeship, good family, friends and girlfriend, and had been lucky compared to so many of his mates.
He told me he often rode a Kawasaki with his mate, also on a Kawasaki, often as time allowed.
And was of the opinion that riding a quad, made him a better motorbike rider.
And he was real keen on MX bikes. ( 2 wheelers).

He explained that he really wanted to do the right thing because he’d just “scored a wicked MX sponsorship deal with Yamaha, and didn’t want to ruin it.�
His query was to why it was so difficult to get a quad bike registered in Qld.
Was there any easy way to get it?
Why do the forestry commission discriminate against quads?

I explained to him the process. And the policies.
He seemed to understand all that, and it’s a lot to take in.
But was frustrated in the multiple letters from both the Police and the Rangers to get the blessed rego.
That Xmas was coming and it was one of the few chances left to ride with his mate before next year, which was going to be “epic�.
He was of the opinion that all “that policy is about discouraging lawful use�.
I agreed.

He also asked about riding unregistered.
I repeated the fundamental legislation that all vehicles must be registered and insured and used by licensed operators.
He enquired about the penalties for getting caught unregistered.
I explained that it is a lot more than the rego.

He asked about my own experiences and what is the policy for the Police or Rangers actually chasing someone.
I explained that both have a policy of non-pursuit, due to public safety concerns.
And they have other means of identifying people of interest.
So, I, like thousands of others, are a forest ghost in Qld public areas.

My advice was that you are better off getting the rego, and at least you are not riding unregistered and insured.
And that the Police, and the Rangers, have to work with the policies and laws they are given.
They, quite often and like me, don’t actually agree with the system.
That system needs changing.

And while I don’t condone riding without rego and insurance, I can understand why so many feel forced into that situation.
He agreed, and said he’d try and get the rego, somehow, and in the meantime, he’d try not to get caught..

The news of that incident.
http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/national/watch/131c879b-f611-33b5-a725-99b9179470d6/teen-killed-in-quad-bike-crash/

On the day of that incident, I had no less than 7 calls from the news networks about it.
Most of those calls were about the govt. policies, whether I knew him personally( his name had not even been released then)
Why is the rego hard to get, do I blame the govt. ,what are the fines, how many quad bikes are in Qld, that sort of stuff.

Then, as now, I expressed my sadness at this loss. That my feelings for the authorities, family, friends and witnesses were truly sympathetic.
I re-iterated that the various govt. departments, and the Ministers in charge, must accept that the responsibility of the circumstances leading to this young man’s death.
And that they need to work together to dissolve such a discriminatory situation."



It is only out of respect, to the victim's family, friends and colleagues, that I have not highlighted this particular matter sooner. 3 months on, you need to address this so it doesn't happen again.


So, if your department really wishes to go down the road of protecting people, I would strongly advise that quad bikes, and side by side vehicles, be recognised as unique motor vehicles, that require special training, and should be used in areas dictated by common sense, and not fear of litigation.


And under the current system, all other authorities are bound by TMR's lead. And as it currently stands, using workplace registration and licensing for recreational use, does not work. And the belief, that a quad has 4 wheels so only needs a car license to operate is nonsense, whether it is part of some legislation, or not. Operating a quad bike by simply steering it, car like, is why people get hurt and killed. And that is why the workplace actually has specific training for quad bike use.


These vehicles, and their operators, are treated like some kind of Bunyip, because officers "signing off" on permits are liable to prosecution. The state is protected, but not it's agents. Hence, few people apply for permits. And few authorising officers actually understand the conditional rego, the need for specialised licensing, or have the time to actually sort anything out. So they just say: No.


And Queensland should do this. Waiting for the NDSL, or any Federal body, is hardly progressive, it's called passing the buck. How much blood do you want on your hands?


To close, I welcome the announcement of a "Red Tape Review", and bring particular attention to the specific application form:
http://www.support.transport.qld.gov.au/qt/formsdat.nsf/qtforms/QF3815/

Apart from being 4 pages in length, compared to most states half or one page, needing Police and land owners permission to even apply has been likened to firearms registration. hardly encouraging of lawful use.
And, the current insurance category for the CTP is a discriminatory piece of policy that the minister himself needs to address. Users utilising a vehicle outside of a home area, are left without CTP.


Such discrimination is a disgrace. You will note another attatchment as a media release. Please feel free to contact the organisers should you wish to be involved. And be assured that any further departmental interferance will be bought to your attention quickly.


Kind regards and I, and we, look forward to constructive progress on these issues.
Dean Hunter.
0412 195 198.
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[bullet]

Heavy stuff Dino.
Fingers crossed for a positive response.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Dino]

bullet wrote:

Heavy stuff Dino. Fingers crossed for a positive response.

A Message to our Goverment readers:
Ignoring the issues and hoping we'll give up and go away won't work.

Link

Do your job.
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[Dino]

Anyone else recieve a survey request from MA ? About recreg & offroad use. Highly recommend completing by 26/05/2013. Make sure you add a mention about no recreg for quads.
RECREATIONAL OUTDOOR SPORTS SURVEY
BDC Market Intelligence is currently working with the TAC to get your feedback for future planning of support services for recreational outdoor sports, which includes motorcycling.
While this survey will not be relevant to you all, there will be some of you for whom it is.
The survey is an important tool to ensure that we can plan services around the needs of the motorcycling community.
The survey needs to be completed by Sunday, May 26, 2013 and will take approximately 10 minutes. Your feedback is appreciated and we thank you in advance for your time.
link = http://surveys.bdconcepts.com.au/s3/Project-Outdoor

Needless to say MAQ haven't passed it on....
Closes Sunday....
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.

[kawboy]

Done mate, cheers for posting the link.
_________________
"Happiness is like peeing your pants, everyone can see it but only you can feel it"

LOONEY TUNED KFX 450R
LOONEY TUNED BRUTE 765

http://www.youtube.com/user/michealmannion?feature=mhum

[scottydig]

Done!!!
_________________
06 700 raptor 50th anniversary

[bullet]

Dino wrote:

Numbers..... The Qld Transport Ministers Office recently pointed out to me and other colleagues, via correspondence, that some 129 riders have died, nationwide, on quads during this 10 year period. Hmm, 220 000 divided over a 129 = 0.000586%.…………….

About a month ago, the population of Australia reached 23,000,000
The average Australian lives for 81 years.
That means 284,000 Australians die every year.
2,840,000 australians will die in any modern 10 year period and only 129 of those deaths will be on Quads.
129 people out of 2.8 million. Maybe we should ban everything else in life.
Who would have thought quads were so amazingly safe ?
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Prokiwi]

Survey done.
_________________
It's time too ride !!!!!!!

[Dino]

Well, a response from his office, not him.
A partial win. Only cost millions in revenue, a young life to bring it to attention and it's back to where it was before TMR started fixing things 5 years ago.
We are not done yet.

Reply in part:
"Thank you for your email to the Honourable Scott Emerson MP, Minister for Transport and Main Roads, about the need to have a separate registration and licensing category for quad bikes. The Minister has asked that I respond on his behalf.
I understand that you have previously written about these matters and I note that these have already been addressed in previous correspondence. As you are already aware, licence classes currently used by the Department of Transport and Main Roads (TMR) are required under the National Driver Licensing Scheme who established the core driver licensing principles for national consistency that Australian jurisdictions have agreed to follow.
You may be interested to know that a review of the administrative processes for granting conditional registration to riders of quad bikes has been undertaken. The review identified that the process can be streamlined and red tape reduced in the application process. TMR will be removing the requirement for an applicant to provide proof of access or a permit issued by the relevant authority prior to the granting of the conditional registration.
The changes will be implemented from June 2013 as TMR has a number of administrative changes to make. This includes the updating and gazetting of the Guideline for Conditionally Registered Vehicles in Queensland, amending the vehicle registration application form and TMR website, and communicating the changes to TMR Customer Service Centres.
In regards to the Conditional Vehicle Registration Application form, your feedback will be taken into account when this form is next reviewed and I appreciate your input.
In relation to your comments about compulsory third party (CTP) insurance, please note the CTP insurance scheme in Queensland is regulated by the Motor Accident Insurance Commission and TMR acts as a collection agent only for insurance premiums on behalf of licensed insurance companies."

Bloody beaurocrats.
_________________
Remember. We elect politicians, but we have to deal with bureaucracy.
Notice that crazy in the bureaucrats.