OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[IC chill]

I think we are getting to hung up on to much silly sh!t to make this class work like little stuff cut plastics who cares it dont make you any quicker, I went for production with limited mods, as im a firm believer of its who on the bike not the bike that wins races. yes it does help but you put lancaster or brenton on a stocker and garuntee they would beat 99% of the pros on 20,000 bikes out there now.

[bullet]

Wadey wrote:

ever had a muffler damaged from a shunt from behind and found the cost of a replacement OEM muffler to expensive ], OK to rejet/fuel interceptor and or remove airbox lid [ some bikes are air factory airbox restricted simply for intake noise reasons and correct fuel ratio for racing is a must for engine care ] OK to change of rims but stay with same material and dimensions .

Lots of things can get damaged in a crash. And while it could happen, I haven't seen a stock muffler destroyed this year.
I guess if someone did wreck one there would be plenty of like new cheapies around because some say most people take the standard muffler off as soon as they buy a bike and never use it.

Manufacturers are pretty focused on selling bikes that will get through warranty, so the fuel mixtures are pretty safe as far as engine damage goes. Most engines that blow up during racing are not stock, that's for sure.

Factory rim dimensions are hard to maintain with aftermarket rim sizes being usually different.
That one is in the current rules where bike widening is not allowed.
If wider rims were to be allowed, how much would be ok?
Then people can spend more money and get the widest ones allowed

YAM, if your vote is for the current rules, a bike with cut plastics can not allowed. So the pipe and anything else does not matter.

Seems a lot of people want the Production class racers to pretty much be able to have the same bike as every other class.
Why?
Just one different bike class could be the tiniest bit more interesting hey
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[PeteW]

well now that we have 2 threads going about exactly the same thing with the same people posting in it I guess i'll just start again.

We should separate the Junior Production from the Senior Production rules to start with.

To save any un-nessecary angst I think the Junior rules should stay as they are currently.

I wouldn't vote for either option that is there at the moment as I still believe that there needs to be some concessions allowed. just not to the extent that we currently allow.

so far I reckon Mr Vanilla Slice has got it pretty close to what I would have thought, not sure about pegs but as the only argument against them so far involved Banshees I don't really see a problem (cos really who's gonna put pro pegs on a Banshee to go proddy racing)

tyre remaining standard size (not brand) is probably a good option rather than OEM tyres only.

Just to throw further fuel on the fire the following is directly taken from the 2008 AMA/ATVA rule book, this is what they do in the US

Quote:

1. Motorcycles and minicycles used in stock class competition must be approved by the AMA. Modified classes will run as indicated in the General Equipment Standards Section. 2. For a motorcycle/minicycle to be approved, the manufacturer must apply to the AMA, register the machine’s specifications, provide photographs and prove that 100 identical, completed machines of the same model are available for sale to the general public at multiple dealer showrooms throughout all six AMA regions. AMA staff will verify production requirements. Application forms for motorcycle/minicycle approval are available from the AMA. The approval procedure for the following model year will open August 15th and must be completed no later than the following March 15th. a. Manufacturers and distributors must have a sufficient quantity of spare parts to meet customers demand for a minimum of the current model year being approved. Any parts determined to be inadequate in design or construction may be upgraded by the OEM approval process as defined by the AMA staff and must be submitted no later than June 15 of the model year. AMA may require one unit of each approved model and/or upgraded part(s) to be provided for long term parts comparison. 3. A list of currently approved models is available. 4. *To be eligible for a STOCK CLASS, the following cannot be changed or modified: Internal engine components, electronics, frame, carburetor, air box, swing arm, rim size, wheel hubs and exhaust system. Cylinder re-plating is allowed but must retain the original manufacturer’s bore. Changes to carburetor jetting is allowed. Clutch plates, pistons and piston rings may be accessory items as long as they maintain the stock shape, design and material of the OEM parts. High compression pistons are not allowed. All other internal engine components must be stock OEM parts. Material may be added to the existing frame for strength, including welding. OEM front and rear suspension can be altered with internal modifications only. Shock linkage and suspension spring rates may be changed to any commercially available part. Any items not listed above may be changed or modified. Violations of the stock class rules as determined by the protest process or by the referee of the event will result in a disqualification from the event. A second violation of the stock class rules will result in a disqualification from the event and a suspension from AMA competition for one year. However, if a violation is deemed by the referee to be cosmetic in nature, with no performance advantage or willful misconduct involved, he may issue a warning or fine in lieu of disqualification. 5. To be eligible for stock classes in oil injection systems used in stock classes, only oil may be put in the reservoir. Pre mix gasoline is not allowed in the oil injection system.

and these are ammendments from the ATV section

Quote:

11. In addition to the stock rule, as printed in Chapter 3, for an ATV to be legal in the stock class the following items cannot be changed: Rear axle, A-arms, exhaust with spark arrestor, shocks, air box with lid, carburetor, and gas tank. 12. All front bumpers must be of a tubular design with no sharp protruding edges. Mud screens are permitted as long as no sharp edges are exposed

that sounds a lot like our current rules minus the exhaust allowances...
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[cowchaser]

That is called common sense
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Smitty

[HSR]

That`s just about the same as the Victorian proddy rules and we didn`t see the US ones until now , can`t be too far off the mark for an international class. ( now won`t that cause some debate ).
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[bullet]

I don't think there is any disrespect to the QRCV rules going on here at all.
It is more a matter of, should we re-aim the Prody rules to try and attract more people to the sport Australia wide.

This is not an issue in the U.S. where they have 1,000 entrants on race day, and lots that miss out because they are not good enough.
When you have that luxury you can get as complicated as you like with the rules, you can run a lot more classes.

As a current racer, I don't think there is anything wrong with the Prody racing at all.
Quite the opposite, it fantastic, the closest you'll get.
But it is getting faster than Expert, and numbers in Clubman and Expert are low.
And it is not because Production is run either, because most of the Prody riders run two classes anyway.

Perhaps we could lower Prody rules to attract more people to the sport.
I reckon as low and as simple as we can go the better.

What would car racing be like if there was only Formula 1...
That was where anyone started, that was the standard, and that's what it cost to be competative.
All the rules stated anything up to an F1 car can enter.

Our Pro quads are the F1 cars of our sport.
The class suposedly aimed at "bush-bashers" is only something like 3% behind in lap times.
Something is not working there.
Maybe we should show some flexibility and look at some change for betterment and push the machine spec down as far as possible.
maybe we'd achieve 5% slower and a whole lot less intimidating.
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[noodles]

OZ_450 wrote:

noodles i dont agree with pegs being changed as with a banshee 1 inch back and a lower peg gives more weight to rear improving ridability and traction in races i think bars and safety like bar ends and nerfs and lanyard only

I'm flexible on the pegs i only let that one slide to allow for the use of a propeg type nerf bar wuth built in heel gaurds/pegs but i'm happy to remove it and the stem

so the rules will be as follows

stock motor
stock exhaust (including baffle)
stock shocks
stock wheels
orignal tyre size
stock gearing


safety mods as follows
nerfs
kill switch
bar end plugs

allowable comfort mods (ie for different sized riders)
Bars / grips

you can modify the following things as much as you like and the instruction on how to do so will be in your owners manual.

tyre pressures
spring tension
compression and rebound (if you have that option)
handlebar and lever position
you can use any of the gears in the gear box
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say NO! to ball sports

[azza450]

"The class suposedly aimed at "bush-bashers" is only something like 3% behind in lap times.
Something is not working there. "

If this is your problem with the class Bullet you may be overlooking the most important component that makes a quad go fast ... the rider!

The problem with the current production class being too competitive isn't the bikes or the rules, it's the fact that the majority of riders in the class are experienced and very quick.

I can ride a production spec. Polaris within 1-2 seconds per lap to that of a fully prepped race bike of the same model. Any experienced rider such as those already involved in the current production field could do the same on their bike of choice if they put their mind to it.

Yet here we are p*#sing and moaning about stuff like aftermarket rims, tyres, handlebars, throttles, stems, cut plastics, sticker kits and gripper seat covers, NONE of which make a bike go faster.

If you want to make the production class appealing to "bush bashers" then make it a non-competitive class for NOVICE riders, all experienced riders and cross entries would then be exluded.

However, I"m pretty sure the problem with this theory is obvious, the class would be EMPTY![/quote]

[Huskygoat]

You can't say this class healthy.

NEW RIDERS is what its for nobody else . everybody knows Smithy could whip us all on a stock quad.

we don't want these guys to put their hand in their pocket for anything.

there is plenty of other races for experience riders.
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[Huskygoat]

Pete W is it possible to combine these threads?
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Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[azza450]

Huskygoat wrote:

You can't say this class healthy. NEW RIDERS is what its for nobody else . everybody knows Smithy could whip us all on a stock quad.

Watch out Husky, you may have just invented a new class.
Whadya' reckon Smith, sounds like fun.

[Hudson]

This seems to be the underlying problem....This class does not suit the NEW RIDER but here we are trying to figure out what will suit them best.

The answer is simple.

Make a class that the less experienced rider can turn up with whatever bike he/she has (MA legal) and compete against riders of the same skill level. We could call it CLUBMAN!!!!!!!!

Production doesn't work for the NEW RIDER we're trying to attract. Too many rules and too many 'over experienced' riders.

It's not about budget as much as it's about having fun. You can't tell me the "Bush Basher" is going to have fun turning up to race guys that lap within 3% of Pros and get lapped by the end of the race.

You're asking for a skill level type of class to attract the new comer but making the rules so the Australian Pro champ can turn up and race against him and wondering why it's so hard to get a full grid.

Every class is SKILL based from Pro through Clubman EXECPT 2. They are Vets and Production. Both these classes have nothing to do with experience. You're calling for the unexperienced rider to come and compete in a class that isn't designed for them.
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[bullet]

Hudson wrote:

This seems to be the underlying problem....This class does not suit the NEW RIDER but here we are trying to figure out what will suit them best. The answer is simple. Make a class that the less experienced rider can turn up with whatever bike he/she has (MA legal) and compete against riders of the same skill level. We could call it CLUBMAN!!!!!!!! Production doesn't work for the NEW RIDER we're trying to attract. Too many rules and too many 'over experienced' riders. It's not about budget as much as it's about having fun. You can't tell me the "Bush Basher" is going to have fun turning up to race guys that lap within 3% of Pros and get lapped by the end of the race. You're asking for a skill level type of class to attract the new comer but making the rules so the Australian Pro champ can turn up and race against him and wondering why it's so hard to get a full grid. Every class is SKILL based from Pro through Clubman EXECPT 2. They are Vets and Production. Both these classes have nothing to do with experience. You're calling for the unexperienced rider to come and compete in a class that isn't designed for them.

No, I'm calling for the Production class to be RE-designed for them.

So for the first time quad owner that turned up to the practice track a few weeks ago on his brand new Zooki...
I can say "hey fella, you should give racing a go."
He said " I've been riding two wheelers for years but never raced anything".
I say "Mate, enter Production class, all you need is a stock quad like your shiney new Zook."
He asks "won't they be a pack of scarey basturds".
I say "No, They will all be on dead stock bikes that sound like sewing machines".
You won't have to spend a cent more than you already have and you'll fit right in.
There, Is no chance of that "Man I couldn't even hear my own bike running out there, I did not know what gear I was in".
Even the New guy gets involved in the run for holeshot.
For the first couple of corners at least he feels a bit safer and like he's up with the boys.
Just maybe it helps him decide I like this stuff called quad racing.

And my current production bike is not stock, it a 'current production rules legal' bike (half worked).
It did crap in the holeshot races in the Vets at the Nationals.
Even though I can get over the bar quickly I don't think I ever managed better than 7th to the holeshot, even when I drew an ideal gate.
It just has not got the power of the Vets bikes.
A combination of my wicked QuadSquad enhanced suspension, and the extra couple of hp from the de-baffled exhaust, no air box lid, and me riding the wheels of it...
Allows me to climb through the field a bit to maybe get a 4th if im lucky.

On a dead stock bike there is no way i'd come 8th in that field.
probably a 10th.

Did anyone see Beery on a borrowed dead stocky at Warrnambool.
It slowed him down a lot.
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[PeteW]

Huskygoat wrote:

Pete W is it possible to combine these threads?

Can only split threads not join them together, sorry Husky

Hudson's hit the nail on the head yet again, at the moment the Production Class is not realistically an entry level class, look at the list of entrant even over the last three years that it has been going for and they are 98% experienced riders.

Smitty, Bullet, Beery, Taita, Roycroft, Cam Wade etc.

Not exactly beginners.

While I do believe that a Proddy/Stock class in some form is a good idea maybe it should be aimed at the riders that are in it already and have a different class as entry level like a rally class that is non cometitive, no restrictions, half the price of entering a competitive class to encourage newbies in. then once they've got some experience and confidence they can go race in clubman or vets or proddy, whichever they choose.
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[bullet]

Maybe:

CLUBMAN
half price entry.
gate start but no points, no championship status.
Promoted during season, basically kicked up as soon as they have developed some confidence (not wait till the clean sweap the year)

PRODUCTION
dead stock
tyres bla bla bla
(us all the gears in the gearbox if you really want to)

INTERMEDIATE
as the name suggests any experienced rider.

VETS
hard core, but old nutbags who can't ride for 20 minutes.

PRO
the hard core dudes.

And I'm sure the lap times would go in that order too.
I think that would help boost numbers in Expert and Prody too.
Clubman should be the smallest class (less intimidating)
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[Huskygoat]

yes I will go along with that. As long Productin is stock. I'm not interested rules that can be bent. only exception is tyres as long as there same size.
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[PeteW]

bullet wrote:

Maybe: CLUBMAN half price entry. gate start but no points, no championship status. Promoted during season, basically kicked up as soon as they have developed some confidence (not wait till the clean sweap the year)

I still think clubman needs to stay as it is, there needs to be a proper progression of graded classes so there really needs to be a Novice or D Grade class added to the format for this kind of thing rather than comprimising the existing class class structure.

Clubman shouldn't be the smallest class, it needs to be the feeder class for Expert, also there are plenty of riders who will never be able to ride above clubman level and shouldn't be forced up into expert for the sake of numbers in that class.
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[cowchaser]

bullet wrote:

So for the first time quad owner that turned up to the practice track a few weeks ago on his brand new Zooki...

This the prob with your arugument Bullet most new guys don't have a shinny new Zooki. They have a second hand clunker that is impossible to return back to stock
_________________
Smitty

[azza450]

You might actually be onto something there Bullet.

I think the maunufacturers care more about the Production/stock class results than we realise, but it is currently looked upon as a support class, whereas clubman is a championship class? (it's meant to be for novice riders).

As far as the rules go, sure, run stock pipes and airbox lids but I still disagree on such items as rims and handlebars. Why should little Johnny who thrashes his banshee have to get his stock rims rerolled or replaced with the same cr*p after every race meeting, not to mention the obvious safety issues. Or every time he tips the thing over he has to replace the stock handlebars with the same cr*p because they're wrapped around the fuel tank.

[bullet]

cowchaser wrote:

bullet wrote: So for the first time quad owner that turned up to the practice track a few weeks ago on his brand new Zooki... This the prob with your arugument Bullet most new guys don't have a shinny new Zooki. They have a second hand clunker that is impossible to return back to stock

The order I proposed allows for those guys too Smitty.
Keep clubman small, safe and easy and kick people up as soon as they can handle Expert.
Expert level at the states could do with more than a couple of riders.

Both Clubman and Prody would be slower.
Prody slowed by bike and Clubman by rider grading.

Petey, clubman should be the smallest class because it is the feeder class for the other classes.
It will be much easier to get people out on a grid of 3 or 4 in clubman if they feel like they are helping to make up numbers.
Kinda like a "we need you out there" sort of thing.
And we can tell new riders that the crazy (experienced) guys are kicked straight up.

Intermediate should be the biggest class by a long shot.

Husky,
I'd like to see your latest draft list of rules, sounds good.
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Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[bullet]

azza450 wrote:

You might actually be onto something there Bullet. I think the maunufacturers care more about the Production/stock class results than we realise, but it is currently looked upon as a support class, whereas clubman is a championship class? (it's meant to be for novice riders). As far as the rules go, sure, run stock pipes and airbox lids but I still disagree on such items as rims and handlebars. Why should little Johnny who thrashes his banshee have to get his stock rims rerolled or replaced with the same cr*p after every race meeting, not to mention the obvious safety issues. Or every time he tips the thing over he has to replace the stock handlebars with the same cr*p because they're wrapped around the fuel tank.

Thats a good vote Azza.
The power is still restricted down to stock but sensible replacement of frequently damaged parts is allowed where it does not effect the machines power output.
Maybe the rider could show his old std bent bars at scruitineering next race.
And we would see people buying a set of rear rims because tey caved one in, but the fronts remain stock until damaged.

(incidentally no-one totalled a rim this year in Prody in Australia) but it could happen.

Those legitimate replacements are not really a problem.
It's more that if the rules allow non standard.
Someone can go buy a top of the line race model...
buy a full new set of rims and tyres (or two sets for wet and dry)
and new bars etc etc.
All for his first way too serious race, when there was nothing wrong with the standard stuff.

We will be able to attract more manufacturer attention and money to the sport if the bikes are kept more standard.

But like you said... I have no problem with what you are intending.
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Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

Last edited by bullet on Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total

[Huskygoat]

does anybody know how many new sports quads sold in Australia?

Do most of these guys ride trails?

I think this is where our marketing should be if I was running a business to acquire numbers.
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[PeteW]

bullet wrote:

Petey, clubman should be the smallest class because it is the feeder class for the other classes. It will be much easier to get people out on a grid of 3 or 4 in clubman if they feel like they are helping to make up numbers. Kinda like a "we need you out there" sort of thing. And we can tell new riders that the crazy (experienced) guys are kicked straight up. Intermediate should be the biggest class by a long shot.

I think that a system like that would lose more riders than it would gain.

Most riders would accept being put up to Expert after a good season in clubman but then what happens to guys who aren't full time MX riders (like me) who are experienced and capable riders but would be then forced to ride in expert class when they would have normally just entered in clubman?

Once again you seem to have completley missed the point which was of course that we need a NEW entry level class that is NOT "production" that adds to the already existing (and already nationally accepted)classes.

We are trying to grow the sport which should mean more classes not less
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[Mrs_Gaitar]

D Grade - great name instead of Novice...
to existing riders it will still mean the same thing...
but ride what you want- uncompetitive-
Production class - minefield....
When your ready to compete, join clubmans

just cause theres only 3 classes A B C grades, doesnt mean that cant change. I'm certainly watching on this thread with alot of interest, as I think a D Grade uncompetitive class might be the go, at our quad states this year.
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[bullet]

PeteW wrote:

I think that a system like that would lose more riders than it would gain. Most riders would accept being put up to Expert after a good season in clubman but then what happens to guys who aren't full time MX riders (like me) who are experienced and capable riders but would be then forced to ride in expert class when they would have normally just entered in clubman? Once again you seem to have completley missed the point which was of course that we need a NEW entry level class that is NOT "production" that adds to the already existing (and already nationally accepted)classes. We are trying to grow the sport which should mean more classes not less.

I don' think so Pete.
We need more sport growth in the classes we've got.
How can anyone suggest we need more classes when we got 3, 4 or 5 riders in some classes at the Vic State titles.
We dont even have a Pro-class in SA.
We struggle to get grids of 8 in any class where the grids can take 20.

In SA discussion this year, one realisation that came up was...
maybe we should not look at starting any new class up until we have 12 in the classes around it that the new class might take numbers from'.

And you Petey are an experienced rider.
A very experienced rider who could hit the track on any bike.
You need to change the way you see the entry level class.
By the book definition you are a definite 'Intermediate rider'.
And you would do really well in intermediate if all the other people like you moved up and left 'Clubman' for the novice riders.

When I was last talking to Ando, he said yeah us top 3 Clubman have to go up.

Like Noodles said, he's a very experienced rider too.

Just First timers, Novices, Bush Bashers, Partners having a go...
I reckon Clubman would pull heaps more into the sport if that was how riders around your level thought.

But Production should still come down a peg or two as well.
It should be slower than Intermediate (by machine) and be different, sound different, look different.
We have the opportunity to add a new aspect to the sport without creating a new class and robbing numbers from others.
and manufacturers will back this too.
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