OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[Huskygoat]

http://www.atvriders.com/atvnews/atva-2009-atv-age-cc-guidelines-phased-out.html

Just makes you wonder some days is there a better way for the kids classes?

Is there any consensus on production class? rules? I think we could run it NT but I would like the guys to be compliant for the nationals.

Huskygoat

Doesn't seem to be anything in 2008 handbook?
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Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[bullet]

You can probably spec what ever class you want for NT Husky.
And then just refer to those rules in your sup regs.

Personally, I'd like to see the Production rules be even more stock to try and invite even lower budget racing.
But changing any rules is a big bag of worms.

I'd imagine that if you have a set of NT rules that differ slightly to the QRCV rules that have been used for the last 3 years,
they will be taken into consideration when drafting the SR's for the Nats.

I don't really know where it will all end up,
but It's great that you are looking at getting the class up and running up there.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Huskygoat]

So what do the rules state now? what I'm thinking similar if not the same rules would make easier for later and yes of course cheaper class to run.
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Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[noodles]

The current VIC production class rules are far too interpretable in my opiinion , a production quad is just that, as it comes out of the factory!!
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say NO! to ball sports

[cowchaser]

Production class should include
being able to change ,controls (not inluding stem hight), bars, rims (stock off-set), tyres, gearing, slip on pipe and jetting.


If you don't allow these basic changes the class is dead in the water because people still want to enjoy riding there quad
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Smitty

[Huskygoat]

Bloody hell. My phone hasn't stopped . need some rules guys .. at the moment the DS boys are chewing my ears. I know what I would like but , to get the trailrider out there it can't hit them in the pocket because thats the reason their not racing. this is going to get picky but maybe a control tyre? most trailriders buy the cheapest Maybe Kenda claws good allrounder? I can understand controls but could get out of hand with cost? remember the people I am targeting wouldn't have all the safety gear, more cost not to mention a race liecence $$$$ Just asking Smithy, why would you allow rim changes? The slip on ? the trouble here when the dealer sells quad most cases the slip on is already in the post from the states.

All comes back to what is already allowed.
_________________
Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[HoleshotQR#24]

No need to specify tyres, they wear out and need replacing, no-one sticks with oem. Safety gear and racing shouldn't be negotiable, and licences and racing go hand in hand.

I think the logic behind allowing rim changes but keeping the offset is that if you damage a stock rim it is much cheaper to replace with aftermarket than standard from the manufacturer, and rims are easily damaged.

I think jetting needs to inc fuel map for EFI, ie allowing the yoshi cherry bomb for the suzuki to re tune for no airbox lid and spark arrestor.
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Proud Member of QuadridersSA
www.dualroost.com.au

[bullet]

I agree with Noodles.
Production should be factory.
No-one has any trouble understanding that, and you can't get cheaper.

Our classes need to be seperated by 'bike' much more than they are now.

This year I won the Vic State Vets and came 5th in the Vets at the Nats on my Production bike which still had the standard muffler, no fuel controller etc.

Nick Schivers came 2nd in Production in the Nats and clean sweep won the Expert class on the same bike.

I have always thought Production should be a lot more standard.
That way bikes would all be around 35 to 38 hp and we would actually have a different senior class to all the others.

Louder 50 hp bikes are more intimidating and do not attract everybody to having a go at our sport.

The QRCV 'draft' Production rules are on the QRCV website Husky, and they have been the standard so far.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[bullet]

HoleshotQR#24 wrote:

No need to specify tyres, they wear out and need replacing, no-one sticks with oem. Safety gear and racing shouldn't be negotiable, and licences and racing go hand in hand. I think the logic behind allowing rim changes but keeping the offset is that if you damage a stock rim it is much cheaper to replace with aftermarket than standard from the manufacturer, and rims are easily damaged. I think jetting needs to inc fuel map for EFI, ie allowing the yoshi cherry bomb for the suzuki to re tune for no airbox lid and spark arrestor.

You can't get most factory offset rims for most bikes in aftermarket.
Most factory fronts are 1.5 inches out.
Aftermarket rims are 2 inches out.
This allows widening of bikes, does that fit the rules.

I think airbox lids and spark arestors should remain in place to keep the hp down.
If people want to race harder... enter Intermediate (there are plenty of classes for that).

under 40hp also gives good progression for juniors getting off blaster class bikes.

Sorry if this is all only making it harder Husky, but as one of about only 5 or 6 people iracing this class in Australia (don't know about WA)
I have been looking into these rules for a year now.
It's not easy and everyone has a different opinion with different justification.

Maybe get everyone who will race this class to vote

best of luck.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Huskygoat]

I can't be looking in the right spot Bullet because I see the rules . Can you paste or pm me the rules so I can get a clearer view to what I am dealing with.

A few points

1. the Idea of a production class to new riders at minimal cost racing.

2. the guy who buys a new quad. this guy is easy, but normally wants some bling

3. the guy who has a second hand quad with bling already on it . problem

4. perceptions at moment about race ready quads.

5. we don't want like years ago in touring cars that rules fit a certain car


I think I can get this class up and running with a few incentives from our club. With the bike shops help we can give a free race pass as a starter pack to everybody who buys a sports quad. A little given to get them out there having a go.
_________________
Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[cowchaser]

Husky
The reason for changing rims is because as soon as you use stock rims on an MX track they turn into squares they are made of tin foil. So you should be able to replace them with aftermarket ones that are stronger! So what if they are half an inch wider.

Bullet
I really think the class will die if you go down the route your talking about. Beleive it or not people use thier quads for other things than going around an MX track. Nobody wants to leave their quad bone stock people want to take the airbox lid off and put on a slip on and if you do that you have to rejet it.
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Smitty

[bullet]

Sorry about that Husky, I just had a good look around the QRCV website and could not find the Draft Production Rules.
Petey W will either get them back up or e-mail them through.

There has been a lot of talk about the Prody rules all year.
Smitty and I have discussed them often and always disagreed.
I very much respect Smitty's view and recognise that the Prody class was a Smitty concept in the first place.

At the moment, the Prody class is not a big class to kill, and maybe we should run that risk with the positive aim of intended improvement and going forward.
I have raced Prody all year and even when travelling interstate to big events, I don't think I have ever raced more that 3 other people.
I do know a couple of people who wanted to race but they thought the rules were too confusing and they did not qualify because they had a minor non-compliance that they could not reverse.
Like trimmed plastic on the front guards.
To them it seemed ridiculous.

I have to stress that my interest is only in expanding the class and growing our sport.
In fact my sponsors would probably not benefit from my view point because at an immediate glance my 'factory' idea does not appear to lead in to aftermarket sales.
But,
I think we need to look at the bigger picture here...

Would a factory class invite more people to the sport (more future sales)

I think I can say I know that at the moment there is very little difference between any of our senior male race classes.
I believe this is a very big limiter for sport growth.

Currently, parents watching a Clubman race to see if they should let their 17 year old son get out there and try Quad MX,
Could see young 'Richy Rich' out there on the line on last years top Pro-racers old season fully prepared 55hp race bike.
The gates drop and the scariest noise they have ever heard roars all the way to the holeshot where bikes tangle under brakes from 100km.

One lad could be getting lapped out there on his stock 400.
But thats the lowest class he could enter, Clubman.
He wouldn't entre Production because they are all faster???

I believe that if production class were dead stockers,
The whole grid would sound like sewing machines with there baffles in and maybe only get to 80kmh for that first corner.

The race would all be about getting the most out of the least on production bikes, and I think there will still be plenty of 'racing' in it.
At a bad day on sandy tracks the 18 inch rear wheel bikes would drag their guts and the 20's would do well.
Same for mud.
If your Honda had one more hp than the new Can-Am how would you get around it in a grippy flat corner.

Your "touring cars" example is a good one Husky, and definitely a concern that won't go away as new models are released.
But I think Prody should be viewed like Hyundia racing, compared to the V8 500's.
It should be as different as possible and not allow any mods at all.

Chances are that if someone has a blinged up quad they might be an experienced rider. They can either put their stock stuff back on to race Prody (which is sitting rigth next to the bike on the shed floor) or they can entre Clubman or Intermediate.

I have raced my stock Can-Am with a lower profile tyre all year in all Prody races around the country and in all the SA state rounds with the stock rims.
The QRCV rules allow tyre of choice, so even though it would lead to more rim damage, i went for the advantage because it was legal.
My two rear rims lasted all year with only a few minor flat spots that I just knock out.
If I had damaged a rim, I could have easily offered someone in another class some money for their stock rims "that aparently no-body uses because they are all crap".
So there should be heaps of them lying around.

In fact I just bought a set of as new stock Yamy rear rims for a mate for $75 each.

Rule changes are always going to be hammered down, but have a real good think about the growth of our sport and a different attractive senior entry platform.

Or shall we leave it so that you have to spend $600 on tyres, $600 on exhaust, $400 or rejet and Dyno tune, new bars and accessories etc etc
Just to be competative in the Production class.

The prody class should be boring for experienced racers.
Just like if Mark Webber dropped back to Hyundia racing for a year.

That's my view, but at the end of the day I'll race whats available.
Quad racing could take a sensible risk to improve the sport, or...
it could be left well alone and I guess we'll see the same 4 people in the production class for all of 2009 as well.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[bullet]

Christ! I did not realise that was such a big post till I put it up.
I better go jump on my bike (prody) and go thrash my issues out
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[cowchaser]

I know where your coming from mate and in a perfect world that would be an awsome class for new commers. BUT WE LIVE IN THE REAL WORLD!

What your talking about only suits people on brand new bikes. That class was invented to get more guys out of the bush and on to the track or totally new people to the sport. Most of the new guys and the bush bashers are on 2nd hand bikes that already have the basics on them and dont have the stock rims or the air box lid and so on. They are not going to go out and buy all this just so they can enter production class
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Smitty

[bullet]

The REAL WORLD is...
only 5 people have entered Prody class for the whole of last year.

None of them are scrub bashers and they all have newish bikes with all the stock gear.
No-one else enters because the current rules make it too hard, or maybe because the current racers spend too much or are too fast.
I suspect its a combination of all those.

The "Most of the guys" you are talking about have never entered and do not exist in this class.
Not one.

Current REAL WORLD Production field:
1 x Pro racer
1 x State 2 wheeler champion who works for a dealership
1 x Racer who works for a 2 brand dealership
1 x super experienced Vet with numerous championship under his belt
and me.
(sorry if I missed anyone)

None of those guys would say stock rims are too hard.
It's the cost and the specialty tuning and technical suspension modifications allowed within the current rules that are tricky.

There is no way in hell a "bush basher" could keep up with all that.
If it is suposed to be a stock class for the average guy... where is he.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Gravedigger]

gidday smitty & bullet, i respect both views however i really think that the growth of the sport is paramount whichever way people think is the best to go. I hope to be more active within the club next year, Cheers Deano.

[47industries]

OK you two, there is only one way to settle this. You bring the blow up swimming pool and I will bring the jelly.
Mick@47
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The way to this man's heart is through his esky

[cowchaser]

I think you might be right Deano. The best way to get more people into our sport is push the growth of kids classes, but i'm not going there thats when things get nasty
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Smitty

[bullet]

Hey Deano, Haven't seen you round for a while.
Mate, QRCV people like you and Smitty do a lot to grow our sport.
To a large degree I just run what's there.
I think any ideas that make our sport more attractive to the 'average jo' at a safer and quieter level are good ones.
Good does not necesarily = easy though, and change is allways a challenge.

Mick, can you ask Smitty to shave first
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[triple"A"]

off the showroom floor = production , anything else = clubman , intermediate or pro, even vets.


if it's got anything aftermarket on it then it's no longer a production bike.
greater skill levels required to perform well on a bike that's not quite how your prissy pants likes it. and closer hp outputs through the fields = better racing and again more of a rider vs rider scenario.

if i had my way , which i wont coz i cant be assed pushing for it, even rims and sprocket size would be std as the manufacturer intended.
grips would also be as purchased not to mention handlebars. if the bike is released with a thumb throttle then twist is not allowed. are you getting the idea? i'm saying buy it then race it. as the manufacturer supplied it from the factory.

smithy's version is more appropriately named " i wanna run production but i dont wanna ride a production bike" lol

you can hit me at the next tri state round i bless you with my presence at smiffy lol

[Huskygoat]

the more I read these posts the more I think Bone stock. lots of reasons

the same rules across Australia would be nice
_________________
Truth and Honor and Trust ... never under estimate Them.

[toss]

bullet wrote:

The REAL WORLD is... only 5 people have entered Prody class for the whole of last year. None of them are scrub bashers and they all have newish bikes with all the stock gear. No-one else enters because the current rules make it too hard, or maybe because the current racers spend too much or are too fast. I suspect its a combination of all those. The "Most of the guys" you are talking about have never entered and do not exist in this class. Not one. Current REAL WORLD Production field: 1 x Pro racer 1 x State 2 wheeler champion who works for a dealership 1 x Racer who works for a 2 brand dealership 1 x super experienced Vet with numerous championship under his belt and me. (sorry if I missed anyone) None of those guys would say stock rims are too hard. It's the cost and the specialty tuning and technical suspension modifications allowed within the current rules that are tricky. There is no way in hell a "bush basher" could keep up with all that. If it is suposed to be a stock class for the average guy... where is he.

well the average guys are too overwelhmed by you experts - how in hell is a scrub basher supposed to feel comfortable going out with people who are worthy of sponsorship? isn't the point of this class to entice new racers/bashers to have a go? I think smitty is a great embassitor for the sport but I don't feel worthy enough to get on the start line against him! And bullot many of the bush bashers here are faster then the racers but they are on old bike say over 3yr old - brought 2nd hand with various mods and who knows what... who is the expert that will say what came stock on a bike 5yrs ago?
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always ready to have a go at anything once

[bullet]

Huskygoat wrote:

the more I read these posts the more I think Bone stock. lots of reasons the same rules across Australia would be nice

You're spot on there Husky.
Which ever way it goes, consistency will be very important.
That in itself makes the bone stock rule fit with a lot less confusion.

I reckon the 3 Prody class riders at this years Nats made 50 phone calls to try and work out what was what before we got there.
You'd hate to come down from NT and be protested out for braided brake lines or something.

Good discussion so far everyone.
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[bullet]

Latest QRCV Prody rules just in.

Proposed Production Class Rules for the 2007 Nationals and the 2008 Victorian MX season.
Production Classes: 50cc Div 1, 5cc Div 2.
90cc 2st. --- 110cc 4st. ( Capacities under review )
Senior Production.
Eligibility: All production classes are to be based on commercially and readily available Quads sold on the open market in Australia or Overseas.
1) Engines: All engines must remain standard as produced and sold by the manufacturer, no material may be removed by grinding, polishing, machining or cutting from any casing ,casting, reciprocating parts, transmissions, manifolds, clutch components, vee drives or sheaves, apart from cylinder reboring if the OEM offers oversize pistons/rings, with the exception that Generically engineered and/or manufactured engines may cross use engine components for reconditioning purposes, all cylinder head and base gaskets must be of the same type, material and thickness as standard. No AFTERMARKET pistons, rings, camshafts, valves / valve springs, manifolds, reed valves, reed blocks, clutch springs, clutch weights or sheaves may be used under any circumstances.
2) Frames: All frames must remain standard, frames may be repaired but must not be gusseted, braced, stiffened or strengthened, all engine mounts, mounting brackets and mounting hardware must remain standard
Nerf bars or foot mounting boards must be fitted, foot pegs may be changed if integrated with nerf bars, foot pegs or mounting boards may be raised in the 50cc classes to accommodate the short stature of some competitors but their position must remain as standard.
Axles, “ A “ Arms, swingarms and all steering components must remain as standard, steering dampers may be fitted, steering stems may be repaired but must remain of standard length, handle bar risers or mounting adaptors may be used, handle bars, grips, clutch perches, levers and throttle mechanisms may be changed, subframes may be repaired but must remain as standard no Aftermarket subframes may be used.
All bodywork and hardware must remain as standard, no cut down mudguards are permitted, seat covers may be changed but the height and contour must remain as standard.
3) Brakes: All brake lines, disc rotors, callipers, master cylinders, wheel cylinders, brake drums and cables must remain as standard, friction materials and fluids are free, park brake levers and actuators may be removed and block off plates may be fitted.
4) Exhaust systems: Spark arrestors may be removed provided they only unbolt or unrivet and require no cutting or grinding to remove, slip on mufflers may be used provided they do not require cutting ,grinding or welding to remove the original muffler or facilitate the fitting of the slip on replacement, all header and intermediate pipes must remain as standard, no full length Aftermarket or alternate model exhaust systems may be fitted under any circumstances, all exhaust modifications will be subject to current and/ or future GCR`s regarding noise emissions.
5) Air filters: All air filters must remain as standard fitment, filter element may be changed provide that it is the same shape and fitment as the OEM filter/filters and elements, Air box lids may be removed.
6) Fuel systems: All carburettors, EFI Throttle bodies and injector nozzles must remain as standard, carburettor main jets, pilot jets and needles may be changed, EFI fuel mapping modules may be used providing they are used in conjunction with and do not replace the OEM engine control unit (ECU) or computer and do alter ignition timing, duration, dwell or alter rev limits or rev limiters, no Aftermarket or Race kit ECU`s are permitted under any circumstances, Fuel as per GCR 12.9.
7) Suspension: Internal valving, oil, gas, pistons and springs may be changed, External springs may also be changed provided the same type of spring is used (i.e single rate replaces single rate etc.), all shock absorber bodies, shafts, assembled lengths, link`s, link ratio`s, mounting points and mounting components must remain as standard, no Aftermarket shock absorbers or suspension hardware can be used under any circumstances.
Wheels and Tyres: Tyres are free, Aftermarket wheels may be used provided they are of the same material, structure and offset as the OEM wheels, no wheels spacers or the reversing of rims is permitted.
9) Electrical systems; Tether type kill switches must be fitted and operational, all GLASS lenses must be removed, removal of all other lights, lenses and horns is recommended but not compulsory, switch assemblies may be removed or replaced to simplify their operation, any wiring removed from switch gear, lights etc. Must only be removed to the closest electrical connectors no cutting of the wiring loom is allowed except to facilitate the fitting of the tether type kill switch, no Race kit wiring looms are permitted, alternators, generators, regulators, rectifiers, batteries and ignition systems must remain as standard, no offset keyways, no Aftermarket ignition reluctors, igniters, electronic control units (ECU`S), CDI`s, ignition control units ( ICU`S), ignition coils, or timing alteration devises or modifications are permitted under any circumstances.
10) Cooling systems: Coolant as per GCR`s, all radiators, cooling fans and fins must remain as standard, radiator materials, mounting points, mounting hardware, hoses thermatic or mechanical fans and any and all cooling ducting must remain as standard.
Footnote: If it has not been specifically allowed within these rules then you must assume it cannot be done.


...or, it could just say standard
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Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[cowchaser]

Let me put it another way. All this debating (and I think its a fantastic healthy debate) is about what advantages you can get running in production. My original idea for this class back in about 05 when I bought it up with old man Beech was for it to be a non compeditive class, now I can't remember just how clear I made that and I did not push it at all but that was my original intention.

It was not ment to be a compeditive class but just another class on the day aimed at the new guys to try out. If they wanted to get compeditive then they could enter the other classes.

Once the prod class started in 06 I got sucked in and proberly made it as compeditive as it is now.

Opps my bad

But you see what I mean it wasn't ment to be a serious class and if it wasn't no one would care about the nitty grittys
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Smitty