OZ ATV :: The Australian ATV Forum

[bullet]

[quote="Rotax46"]

quadmad wrote:

I guess we been lucky racing in Brisbane under the radar of MQ Here some pic's of our little princess Well done, as I said I dont agree with the rules but they are what they are thanks to the NQAC.

Incorrect.
You know who supported the Y-10+ ATV standard at the time. MA have all the supporting e-mails.
And in any case the full Y-10+ATV standards do not apply and never have.
It is only the 48kmh speed limit (exactly as keeg originally said above).
Incidentally the 48kmh speed limit is the same for Y-10+ATV's and the Y-12+ATV's, and the Raptor in stock for does comply.

And also incorrect AGAIN...
"The Apex is not y10 compliant, neither is the Raptor therefore neither can be ridden by a 7 - 10y/o" A 9 year old Junior can ride an Apex in the Comp class... or a Raptor 90 with a 14 tooth front sprocket for that matter.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Rotax46]

[quote="bullet"]

Rotax46 wrote:

quadmad wrote: I guess we been lucky racing in Brisbane under the radar of MQ Here some pic's of our little princess Well done, as I said I dont agree with the rules but they are what they are thanks to the NQAC. Incorrect. You know who supported the Y-10+ ATV standard at the time. MA have all the supporting e-mails. And in any case the full Y-10+ATV standards do not apply and never have. It is only the 48kmh speed limit (exactly as keeg originally said above). Incidentally the 48kmh speed limit is the same for Y-10+ATV's and the Y-12+ATV's, and the Raptor in stock for does comply. And also incorrect AGAIN... "The Apex is not y10 compliant, neither is the Raptor therefore neither can be ridden by a 7 - 10y/o" A 9 year old Junior can ride an Apex in the Comp class... or a Raptor 90 with a 14 tooth front sprocket for that matter.

We have all been told by MA and MSA that the 48km/hr can not be tested, there are way too many variables therefore the only part of 22.4.1.5 that can be implemented is the Y10+ compliance. Nowhere in the MOMS is anything stated about Y12+.
Yamaha Australia as well as a number of other brand name manufacturers have clearly stated thier machines are not Y10 compliant . anyone wants a copy of the emails from them I will gladly provide them.

You are correct in correcting my statement that "The Apex is not y10 compliant, neither is the Raptor therefore neither can be ridden by a 7 - 10y/o" as it should have added "In the limited class" to the end of it. Both can only be used in the Comp class by 9-12y/o's and not in the limited class.
_________________
Rotax46
Proud member of SA Quad Club.
www.saquadclub.com.au

[bullet]

Just about all incorrect again.
You know a list of manufacturers that comply with the SVIA standards has been approved by MA.
It covers most of the manufactureres in the world (45 manufacturers of junior quads) and of course Yamaha are in there.
If you missed it the many times it has been sent to you, from MA, here it is again...


To whom it may concern,

Changes to Motorcycling Australia’s Junior racing rules have been made to encourage sport growth and ensure a true "entry level" class that kids can come and test the waters with slower recreational quads without being intimidated (Limited class), while still fostering a faster, more competitive racing class for the higher performance OEM race ready machines and modified machines (Comp class).

Recent years have seen the vast majority of complaints from the quad community centred around fairness in Junior racing. In 2010 the NQAC conducted the widest quad community consultation which discovered a great variety of opinions and discontent. From national member base input, recommendations were shaped into rule amendments aimed at ensuring; the original intention of our existing quad rules are preserved, Junior safety is reinforced, fairness in racing classes is encouraged and future sport growth is facilitated by making it clear that Juniors racing 90cc 2 stroke and 110cc 4 stroke machines are limited to reasonable speeds for their first 2 years of racing in this class. In recent years a few modern higher technology, higher performance machines produced by smaller niche manufacturers have influenced the Junior race scene in an unregulated manner. These high performance machines are not discouraged, and are an ideal fit for the Junior ‘Comp’ class available to over 9 year olds (just not in limited classes).
Why select the speed limit from the SVIA standard Y-10+ATV? (which is 30mph or 48kph).
Drawing a line for junior class separation was an obvious necessity, and placing any one line to perfectly suit every possible junior entrant in Australia was clearly going to stamp a divide. Seeking a machine limiting factor for Junior class separation, an internationally common speed limit was found to be used in many existing standards. The ANSI/SVIA standards define a line that is recognized by every large volume motorcycle manufacturer in the world today.
Historically, MA’s Junior rules have always been based on allowing these commonly available Junior machines to race under MA’s conditions. Not exceeding 48kmh goes a long way to reducing risk in our youngest 90cc / 110cc classes. There is no intention to follow the full SVIA standard to the letter, more that if all of the world’s largest product manufacturers are marketing to this standard that it makes sense to choose any desired limit comparably.
As of the 2nd Jan 2011, the following manufacturers ‘only make junior quads’ that meet this standard;

Arctic Cat Inc. - American Honda Motor Co., Inc. - Polaris Industries Inc.- American Suzuki Motor Corporation - Kawasaki Motors Corp., U.S.A. - Yamaha Motor Corporation, U.S.A. - Bombardier Motor Corp. of America & Bombardier Recreational Products Inc. (f/k/a Bombardier Inc.) - Cannondale Corporation - Baja, Inc., d/b/a as Baja Motorsports - TM North America - Taotao USA Inc. - L & R Racing Inc., d/b/a DRR - KYMCO USA - Wildfire Motors - Tomoto Industries, Inc. - Maxtrade LLC (d/b/a Coolster.com) - SunL Group, Inc. (This plan was terminated on March 29, 2011) - Dynamoto LLC - Luyuan, Inc. - Chongqing Shineray Motorcycle Co., Ltd. - Carter Brothers Manufacturing Co., Inc. - NST Inc.
PowerGroup International LLC (d/b/a Tomberlin Outdoor) - Jianshe USA Inc. - ETON America, LLC - Galaxy Powersports, - LLC, d/b/a JCL International, LLC - Peace Industry Group (USA), Inc. - Shenke USA, Inc. - Sunright International of - America, Inc. - BMX Imports, Inc. - ZAP Corporation - Pacific Rim International West, Inc. - Barefoot Motors, LLC - USA Motortoys, LLC - Metal Motorsports, Inc. - CFMOTO Powersports, Inc. - 3Z Scale International, LLC - El Sol Trading, Inc., DBA Motobravo - Titan Imports, Inc., d/b/a US Titan, Inc. - Sirius Recreational Products LLC - Kandi USA, Inc. - Vitacci Motorcyles, Inc. - BMS Motorsports, Inc. - Yamazuki, Inc. - Lil Pick Up, Inc

All under 90cc 2 stroke or 110cc 4 stroke Youth ATV’s available from the above manufacturers will not exceed 48kmh in their OEM specification, giving any official absolute confidence in their decision making on these products.
There are only a few models from smaller niche manufacturers that are being raced in Australia, not limited to; the Pro Shark MXR90 and Cobra models greater than 63cc engine displacement. 2011 GCR’s do not allow these models to be raced in ‘Limited’ classes because they knowingly exceed 48kmh. Any uncategorized quad or new model from a non complying manufacturer should only be eligible for racing in the higher Comp classes unless Limited ‘equivalence’ is obvious.

MA is aware that most / or all states of Australia usually combine same capacity Junior classes in typically low entrant number events. Therefore it is most likely that Junior 90cc / 110cc Limited and Comp class entrants will race on the same track at the same time which makes direct comparison very easy and also makes it possible to shift classes and points if necessary after witnessing practice or race sessions. If acting in the best interest of the sport, no Parent or Official will be reprimanded for making an honest mistake in technically grading a Limited or Comp machine.
Equivalence to the 48kmh speed limit is allowed to encourage the most fair and open field of competitive machines in Australian quad racing. The highest priority for the majority of Junior entrants is racing for fun. MA wishes to foster this aspect of motorcycling and hopes that allowing ‘equivalence’ invites more manufacturers and entrants.
Any member can have their machine accepted to this limited standard by independent officials, and if the machine is ever noted to obviously go faster or the Limited entrant is successful in consistently gaining podium positions in this class, Machine reassessment should be invited. Remembering that the intention of this rule is to let more kids race for fun, and not encourage trophy hunting. The aspect of equivalence should not offend anyone. Any non SVIA compliant machine should not be aimed at a National Title Trophy without expecting maximum scrutiny. Any such entrant should invite and take pride in absolutely satisfying machine scrutiny.


Kind regards

Barry French
Operations Manager
Motorcycling Australia
Tel: (03) 9684 0503
www.ma.org.au

The 'Limited' class having to be OEM... has never really changed. Every year, these lower Junior classes have always had to race "Standard" "OEM" or straight from the factory floor machines.
In that respect, nothing has changed.
'Limited' = standard and OEM, just the under 48kmh has been added. And all the big manufacturers junior machines in this category are under 48kmh.

Like any junior quads on the above manufacturer list... Yamaha Raptor 90's are Limited class eligable.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Rotax46]

Again wrong.

First the letter refers only to Quads made after Jan 2nd 2011, anything prior does not, by MA's own letter.
Here is a copy of a recent email from the Manager - Engineering Compliance of Honda Australia. Obviously you must know more than Honda themselves do. I also have an email from Polaris and Yamaha also stateing their Jnr Quads are not Y10 compliant either.


Hi ,
Sorry, my original info' may have been incorrect. We sold the TRX90 previously....but, the current 90 we sell is the TRX90EX...which is not Y -10+ approved.
Hope this helps
Greg

Greg Snart
Manager - Engineering Compliance
Motorcycle Service Department
Customer Service Division Honda Australia Motorcycle and Power Equipment Pty Ltd
_________________
Rotax46
Proud member of SA Quad Club.
www.saquadclub.com.au

[bullet]

Buy an Apex or a Cobra if you like.
They are clearly faster than every other bike in the list... because they are designed to be.
They are great products aimed at going faster than the 'Limited' category quads, and that is why they are not in the list.

In the intrest of fair racing, all of the SVIA listed bikes race together in MA's 'Limited' category.

Anything faster races in the 'Comp' category, simple.
If anyone thinks that our younger clasees of Juniors should be able to race quads that go faster than 48kmh, in some cases up to 75kmh... then just write to MA and make your suggestion.
Keep in mind that there is good logical progression that the younger classes of Juniors can all fairly race under 48kmh machines together, and as soon as they turn 9 years old... they can go for broke and spend whatever they want on their machines to get them to go over 48kmh and as fast as mum and dad can afford.
They will hopefully have built a year or 2 of skill before they get to this stage of playing more seriously for National titles etc.

But many parents are very interested in their kids just getting ot there and having some fun in a safe, fair, and equal environment to gain a bit of experience first.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[bullet]

Rotax46 wrote:

Again wrong. First the letter refers only to Quads made after Jan 2nd 2011, anything prior does not, by MA's own letter. Here is a copy of a recent email from the Manager - Engineering Compliance of Honda Australia. Obviously you must know more than Honda themselves do. I also have an email from Polaris and Yamaha also stateing their Jnr Quads are not Y10 compliant either. Hi , Sorry, my original info' may have been incorrect. We sold the TRX90 previously....but, the current 90 we sell is the TRX90EX...which is not Y -10+ approved. Hope this helps Greg Greg Snart Manager - Engineering Compliance Motorcycle Service Department Customer Service Division Honda Australia Motorcycle and Power Equipment Pty Ltd

Please post contact details for the above.
Perhaps Mr Snart has not been clearly asked the correct question in context.
Did he say that the Honda TRX90EX is capable of more than 48kmh???

Or were you only fishing for your own one line answer that suited you cause.
Please forward a contact, and i will chase this matter with Mr Snart.

And you have been sent the 2007 and 2009 SVIA compliance lists as well. Those lists also include the Yamaha 90...
The actual bike in question in this post.

Where are you trying to go with YOUR idea of going to so much trouble to inform our people, riders and families otherwise ?
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Rotax46]

Just informing people of the facts, anyone can go ahead and ring/email/fax thier local dealer or the manufacturers themselves and ask the same question.

Does thier Jnr Quad comply with the SVIA standard Y10+ as required by 22.4.1.5.
_________________
Rotax46
Proud member of SA Quad Club.
www.saquadclub.com.au

[bullet]

Rotax46 wrote:

Just informing people of the facts, anyone can go ahead and ring/email/fax thier local dealer or the manufacturers themselves and ask the same question. Does thier Jnr Quad comply with the SVIA standard Y10+ as required by 22.4.1.5.

Not a fact... INCORRECT

Don't ask your manufacturer "Does thier Jnr Quad comply with the SVIA standard Y10+ as required by 22.4.1.5"
Instead, ask them is it a 48kmh Limited class bike as per the MA rules.
If they say they are not sure, but confirm that their company is a signatory to the SVIA standards.
Then Yes it will be.
The speed limit is the same for the Y-!0+ATV and Y-12+ ATV standards.

As said, and in relation to this thread, the standard Yamaha Raptor 90 is fine.

Above all, ask MA... they are your governing body, and they will let you know. Contact MA anytime.

Rotax46 apears to have his own set of different rules and interpretations.
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Rotax46]

Getting personal now are we Bullet?
Time for a hug?

The rule is clear
"22.4.1.5 Where in Junior competition
“Limited� is used, all machines must
comply with, or be equivalent to SVIA
standard, category Y-10+ATV where,
the maximum unrestricted speed
must be 48kph or less. All quads must
be standard quads built and strictly be
in OEM specification as per 22.4.1.4"

Ask MA or your relevant state authority, how the 48km/hr can be tested at a race track, who can test it, on what surface, who will ride it to be able to test it, what weight is the rider compared to the person testing it and what is the correct procedure to test it, These are the real Questions, I have asked a number of times and the answer is it can't be tested way too many variables. Therefore the only way an official can check to see if the Quad complies is if it is Y10 compliant.
We all know who has the real hidden agenda

I am sure everyone has heard enough on this topic so no more from me. Anyone can PM me if you need to know any real facts.
_________________
Rotax46
Proud member of SA Quad Club.
www.saquadclub.com.au

[pyjamas]

quadmad wrote:

Yip the rules are a little wrong small changes should be ok but i guess the rules are the rules. So does that mean a 7-10 year old that rides a Raptor 90cc is up against a Apex 90cc ? Is there a 7-10 year mod class or do they have to ride a stock quad cos of there age ?

I think the rules state that you cant race comp until the age of 9yrs

Under the current rules an Apex 90 will never race against a Raptor 90 as the APEX must race comp class. So unless the Raptor 90 has mods they wont race against each other but likely to be on track together.

I read the 7-9 Limited class as staright from the factory floor except for tethered kill switch and nerf bars / floor boards. If you are unsure about the mods that are allowed just contact MA. Any other changes I believe are mods (according to the current rules) which would then have to be in Comp Class which then be racing against the Cobra and Apex

Our girls are stepping up to the 90cc class next year on stock, unmodified Apex 90s and they have to race against Apex's and Cobra's that are off their T@#TS.

I understand the intention of the new rules but what about introducing a Production/Limited Class for the bikes that dont do more than 48km/hr and keeping the old OEM and MOD classes. I don't believe this would create an "APEX Class" as there are other Race Ready bikes that would be eligible, such as the DRR and Typhoon. All would still be on track together unless numbers permit separating. Maybe even one day there will be enough shifter bikes to have their own class.
_________________
If you're not having fun, it's not worth doing

Thanks to
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Squire Sisters Racing
Motorcycle Parts an Gear
Off Road Vixens
Burra Tyres
SA Quad Club
and everyone else who helped us

Last edited by pyjamas on Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

[pyjamas]

AGE RANGE CLASS(ES)
5 to under 9 years 50cc non-competition mini-
Limited Standard
7 to under 9 years 50cc Auto or Semi Auto
Limited Standard.
7 to under 10 yrs
up to 90cc 2-stroke or and
110cc 4-stroke Limited
Standard.
9 to under 13 yrs
up to 90cc 2-stroke or and
110cc 4-stroke Limited
Standard
9 to under 13 yrs
up to 90cc 2-stroke or and
110cc 125cc 4-stroke - Comp
Modified.
12 to under 16 yrs
up to 200cc 2-stroke or and
300cc 4-stroke.- Comp
Modified
_________________
If you're not having fun, it's not worth doing

Thanks to
The Goldfinches
Squire Sisters Racing
Motorcycle Parts an Gear
Off Road Vixens
Burra Tyres
SA Quad Club
and everyone else who helped us

[bullet]

Rotax46 wrote:

Getting personal now are we Bullet? Time for a hug? The rule is clear "22.4.1.5 Where in Junior competition “Limited� is used, all machines must comply with, or be equivalent to SVIA standard, category Y-10+ATV where, the maximum unrestricted speed must be 48kph or less. All quads must be standard quads built and strictly be in OEM specification as per 22.4.1.4" Ask MA or your relevant state authority, how the 48km/hr can be tested at a race track, who can test it, on what surface, who will ride it to be able to test it, what weight is the rider compared to the person testing it and what is the correct procedure to test it, These are the real Questions, I have asked a number of times and the answer is it can't be tested way too many variables. Therefore the only way an official can check to see if the Quad complies is if it is Y10 compliant. We all know who has the real hidden agenda I am sure everyone has heard enough on this topic so no more from me. Anyone can PM me if you need to know any real facts.

Send me the contact details you used, and i will check the reference you have quoted.
No problem at all.

I don't know where YOU get the need for physical testing from.
It's not an MA requirement, so why is this YOUR requirement.
It's got nothing to do with MA... just a Rotax46 idea (for whatever that is worth).

There is not need for testing a Yamaha Raptor 90. It is on the SVIA list, so it complies in it's standard form.
So does the Honda TRX90EX.

And the 'meaning' or 'interpretation' of the MA rule 22.4.1.5 is up to MA. NOT Rotax46, he has nothing to do with rule interpretation.
Other people seem to understand the rule perfectly, and if anyone does not, that is understandable due to an extremist minority putting so much work into undermining the honest intention of this aspect of our junior sport.
So don't go looking for the exact answer on any public forum where you do not know what type of person you are listening to, just contact MA directly.
They employ someone to help you... and it's not Rotax46
And let them know your opinion while you are there too

Nothing personal, and no need for a hug. Just please stop deliberately mis-informing people. Everyones stock Raptor 90's are completely eligable for the 'Limited' classes
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[Rotax46]

Everyone say awww for Bullet he is getting a little testy on the topic.

If there is a rule in place it must be able to be tested, simple really. If you cant test it you cant inforce it. Bit like haing a speed limit on the road without any Cops to catch you. No one will speed will they???

Lets bring in a max. width to and not measure anyone, oops sorry we have that now.

_________________
Rotax46
Proud member of SA Quad Club.
www.saquadclub.com.au

[bullet]

Rotax46 wrote:

Everyone say awww for Bullet he is getting a little testy on the topic. If there is a rule in place it must be able to be tested, simple really. If you cant test it you cant inforce it. Bit like haing a speed limit on the road without any Cops to catch you. No one will speed will they??? Lets bring in a max. width to and not measure anyone, oops sorry we have that now.

I thought you said 'no more from me on this topic' I was really looking forward to that
There are thousands of rules in the book, and the vast majority of them are very rarely tested at events.
And that's how it should be
People are generally pretty honest, and Quad riders at quad meets are known for their honesty and generosity.
It's great that we can pretty well rely on that.

We are talking about junior racing here, Natzi rule and microscopic technical scruitineering should not be that necessary now should it.
The parents and kids will generally always do the right thing, so you can keep your police radar gun at home.

PM me that contact when you get around to it.
cheers
_________________
Can-Am X Team
Bullet #Y12. MrsB #Y18.

[NeKeleC]

Hey Rotax46 i think you are taking this to the enth degree here.

The rules are put there as a guide just like the road rules if you choose to break them then you run the risk of copping the fine. Don't think i would like to be the parent that has to tell their kid "sorry Tommy you lost that first place trophy cause Daddy tried to cheat for you".

Stop trying to run the rules to the limit (seeing as you are in fact talking about the 7 to 9 year old class where the kids are out there to have fun) and let your kids have fun.
It seems that you are trying to squeeze the rules to death for these mad parents who try to live their life through their kids, cause we all know that in the kids racing these days first place pays enough money to pay off the family home!!!!!
_________________
The main thing is to have fun I just think second place is no fun

Me - 09 Quadracer 450R No 339
Mrs -09 Quadracer 450R No K77

[jimmy14]

where is the like button on this forum?????
_________________
yeah mate nah

[pyjamas]

jimmy14 wrote:

where is the like button on this forum?????

_________________
If you're not having fun, it's not worth doing

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Squire Sisters Racing
Motorcycle Parts an Gear
Off Road Vixens
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and everyone else who helped us

[noodles]

Non Comp till 200-300 class solves all the rule problems and gets more kids out there having fun,
_________________
say NO! to ball sports

[pyjamas]

[quote="noodles"]
Non Comp till 200-300 class solves all the rule problems and gets more kids out there having fun
,[/quote

I'd be in with that

Would it be whatever quad up to 125cc 4 stroke as long as it complies with safety standards?
_________________
If you're not having fun, it's not worth doing

Thanks to
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Squire Sisters Racing
Motorcycle Parts an Gear
Off Road Vixens
Burra Tyres
SA Quad Club
and everyone else who helped us

[triple"A"]

noodles wrote:

Non Comp till 200-300 class solves all the rule problems and gets more kids out there having fun,

or even no trophies for any junior classes, after all let's be brave here and state the pure facts, the fact that the arguing is going to the enth degree as stated before is because the trophy hunters who want to blitz everyone in the old oem class (raptor 90's and the like) with their factory prepared/built race ready cobra or pro sharks can't do that anymore with the 48km/h restriction.



when we have massive numbers of juniors, we can adopt an ability/performance grading system within machine capacity categories, till then fairness exists by having like capability machines in the same class, and the 48km/h limitation provides the split as bullet has explained and explained and explained.

this may get me banned but it's worth saying

this argument has been conducted and regurgitated by one or two people only on this forum, so my advice to anyone new to the sport, seeking advice on junior classes, ask your local controlling body, MA or any NQAC member, don't listen to the wanker/s

[47industries]

You could be on to something there Noodles. No gate start, random individual start order decided by the starter at the time (not one of the riders parents) so no rider actually knows if he or she is faster than anyone else. Seems a shame that we are even discussing this though, considering it isn't the kids causing the argument???
I'm pretty much over it to be honest. Why don't we just abide by the rules so the kids can ride and we can all stop wasting our time? Otherwise you will just force event promoters to stop including juniors in their programs, and none of us want that!
Perhaps NSW had it right all along? It would solve 95% of the problems in quad racing today!
Mick@47
_________________
The way to this man's heart is through his esky

[pyjamas]

Our girls just love to ride on as many mx tracks as possible. In the 50 non-comp class all participants receive an award. They are stepping up to the 90s next year and are so excited because there will be more kids on the track at the same time. We have already started preparing them for the strong possibility that they wont necessarily get a "prize" every race next season and their response was "That's ok mummy we've got enough, it's someone else's turn".
They enjoy gate starts as well as taking it in turns who leads out. Mixing it up a bit to learn different skills.
_________________
If you're not having fun, it's not worth doing

Thanks to
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Squire Sisters Racing
Motorcycle Parts an Gear
Off Road Vixens
Burra Tyres
SA Quad Club
and everyone else who helped us

[phil58]

HAVE YOU GOT YOUR SPROCKETS YET SHAN600........
_________________
Phil.....